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Any thoughts? - 5/24/2010 6:26:43 AM
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HeX0rZ
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What happens when we die? Where do we go? Is there a hell of eternal fire and torture or do we go to a heaven and dwell among the angels and the Lord?
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/24/2010 3:14:37 PM
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HeX0rZ
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How about one for an unbeliever and one for a believer. From the moment of ones death to say, judgement.
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/24/2010 4:05:48 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HeX0rZ
How about one for an unbeliever and one for a believer. From the moment of ones death to say, judgement.
The answer appears to be the same:
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/24/2010 4:33:57 PM
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gralan
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Part of our problem in dealing with issues like this is that we humans are bound by time.
Time is a created measurable reality. God exists outside of restraints of time.
The passage in Hebrews which Euty used is one I read yesterday as I was reading the book. There seems no equivocation about it.
We trust that God knows exactly, yet there are indications of several things possibly occuring right after death. However it appears from the parable of Lazarus (or the account of Lazarus) and the Hebrews passage that one is divided between goats and sheep right away. The Lord Jesus told us that this division was done at the judgement.
I tend to favor looking at what Jesus says over trying to piece together partial verses from numerous texts to come up with a patchwork quilt to support an answer I'm comfortable with.
I know that the Rev and Euty are the same way.
Peace of Christ to you.
BTW, I really do enjoy discussing things and I do not mean to come across as if I know it all. I do know firmly what I believe, yet I am teachable too.
Whatever your real questions are behind the OP, we cannot address. Is this something of personal interest, or is it a real concern?
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/26/2010 5:11:04 AM
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HeX0rZ
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The fact of the matter is, I have a real problem. It is not of any concern about someone dying without salvation. To me, it feels I have lived a lie for a while. Before I had really gotten into the bible some, I took someones word for it. Now, when I see it, I just can't help but think how in the world did I even think that?
It really broke down when I started reading revelation. It definitely opens up alot of insight on things when you study that book. Problem is, not often at all did I ever hear from anyone leadership of faith talk about revelation and what it all means.
The reason why I ask, is because NOW I do believe that from what I've learned is that we are appointed to die, and maybe only once if we are saved. Everyone will die or if they are lucky enough see the 2nd coming. We will be as I've learned, sleeping until judgement or until we experience the resurrection of the saints. So in the meantime while people are lying in graves, they are NOT in heaven. They lay there until they receive their reward or damnation at the great throne judgement.
I've always been told that we go straight to heaven when we die, or go straight to hell. Then we can look down upon our loved ones and see them and guide them along as if we were angelic. I don't believe that anymore, and I think its rubbish to tell you the truth. To me that would dilute the power of Christ, as he is in control and he doesnt need us to watch over our loved ones.
As well, I don't believe in the hell doctrine that we are judged upon death and then we are thrown to the center of the earth and are tortured for all eternity by the devil and his demons.
It all sounds like rubbish to me, and it makes me mad to hear people think this way, when so far, I see no scriptural evidence to it, and yet, my family is being preached this very thing by their church.
Anyhoo, I'm sure thats enough for you guys to digest at the moment.
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/27/2010 1:16:11 AM
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Judson50
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It would seem the Bible answers you question.
If an unbeliever dies they go into Hades then after the judgment, Death and Hades gets thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Let me walk through this:
I am contending, Jesus taught about a “holding place” for the saved (Abraham’s Bosom) and for those unsaved (Hades) where they were held captive Luk 16:19-31.
We know the Old Testament saints did not receive what was promised (i.e. salvation) but was approved (For salvation) by their faith (Hebrews Chapter 11); for the purpose of perfecting us (NT Saints) with them (OT Saints – who are a great host of witnesses) Hebrews 11:39-12:2
Moreover, when Jesus "descended" (died/buried) He led a host of captives as He ascended. Ephesians 4:8-10 (From Abraham's Bosom)
Those in Hades will not go to “Hell” until after the “Great White Throne Judgement” Revelation 20:11-15
Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Therefore, when Jesus died, He went to this “Holding Place” and preached the gospel to both sides of the “Holding Cell”. Jesus preached victory over death and sin. When Jesus resurrected from the dead, Jesus opened up Abraham’s Bosom and opened the doors to heaven and Jesus led a host of captives into victory over death and sin into Heaven. (Jesus’ home/city).
All those who die without faith in God/coming messiah (OT) or Jesus (NT) will all go to Hades (A very bad place) and wait there until the great white throne judgement is complete.
Moreover, the Bible states to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord (in the context of believers):
2Co 5:6-8
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
The Lord Currently resides next to the Father who is in Heaven
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 10:12 but He [Jesus], having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
Act 7:55-56 [Stephen's Stoning]
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
Therefore, when a Christian dies: He/She goes into the presence of the Lord.
When a non-Christian dies He/She goes to Hades and will reside there until the judgment and second death which is Hell.
I hope this helps!
_____________________________
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy Proverbs 27:6
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/27/2010 5:59:50 AM
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HeX0rZ
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No, that all really makes it more complicated to me... Explain this then: John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man."
That puts every argument to rest IMO about what happens when we die. I think we ALL rest in our graves when we die, whether saved or unsaved until the 2nd coming of the LORD. THEN, do I think thats when the saved dead and alive shall be citizens of Gods kingdom. So in the meantime, while we await in our graves, we are as the bible says, "asleep". It IMO would be like going to sleep in a very violent(dying) way and then waking up without any comprehension of how long time has passed to either the Lords trumpet shout or to the throne judgement.
Hades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity
Or hell, right? In the English language it is hell, right?
"...This use refers the term hades to the abode of the dead in general, rather than the abode of the wicked."
So by reading, it states that we all reside in hell, which is not a place of fire and torment, but the place for the physical body that has died, to rest.
I could be overlooking all this, but I still can't give into the eternal torture in fire being prodded by demons while roasting in lava...
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/27/2010 1:38:31 PM
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Judson50
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HeX0rZ
No, that all really makes it more complicated to me... Explain this then: John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man."
I think we have to look at the context when Jesus said that. Jesus said that before he died and resurrected. Hence all people who died went to the holding place. And were in that holding place at this moment in history when Jesus spoke these words.
quote:
Hades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity
Or hell, right? In the English language it is hell, right?
I am sure it can be translated into "hell" and that may be indirectly true. Because all people in hades will be thrown into the second death the "Lake of Fire". I contend that the "Lake of Fire" is hell; hades is the place all those who are going to hell go to until after the final judgment.
Therefore, if one is in Hades they are reserved for Hell.
Wiki-pedia is a great resource; however, it is not scripture. Scripture is clear; those who reside in "Death & Hades" will be cast into the second death the "Lake of Fire".
quote:
I could be overlooking all this, but I still can't give into the eternal torture in fire being prodded by demons while roasting in lava...
That is good, because that isn't entirely biblical - the way you wrote it - that is more of man's perverse understanding.
_____________________________
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy Proverbs 27:6
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/27/2010 5:48:57 PM
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HeX0rZ
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Well, still even though at the time he said this, he said no one has entered, except the son of man. Hence why I think he said that last part, "the son of man." But hey, if I'm wrong, fine with me I suppose, it all works out. But it would be nice to be clear on it.
If I remember correctly, the 1st death you go to hell, not the hell of fire and brimstone and eternal torture, but the grave. Then the second death, and I believe this to be a literal 2nd death like the first but the death of the spirit where you are totally destroyed. I think the term referred to this one is Gehenna, right? The lake of fire, which I thought Gehenna was a place where they burned their trash. I thought this was compared to the lake of fire?
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RE: Any thoughts? - 5/27/2010 8:16:32 PM
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Judson50
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HeX0rZ
Well, still even though at the time he said this, he said no one has entered, except the son of man. Hence why I think he said that last part, "the son of man." But hey, if I'm wrong, fine with me I suppose, it all works out. But it would be nice to be clear on it.
If I remember correctly, the 1st death you go to hell, not the hell of fire and brimstone and eternal torture, but the grave. Then the second death, and I believe this to be a literal 2nd death like the first but the death of the spirit where you are totally destroyed. I think the term referred to this one is Gehenna, right? The lake of fire, which I thought Gehenna was a place where they burned their trash. I thought this was compared to the lake of fire?
Either way, you do not have to believe what I said to be saved. However, I believe the Bible is clear.
I would like to point out Jesus was speaking in the past tense "has been".
Moreover, All people will die and be "somewhere" for eternity. There is no "destruction". You will either live for eternity in Heaven or Hell. Ghenna was an eathly location where dead bodies, feces, garbage ect was burnt 24/7. It smelled, was disgusting and was very Hot. Jesus used that as an earthly representation of a spiritual truth.
We won't "go" to ghehenna but we will go a place that will be like (and actually worse) than gehenna.
I hope that helps!
Judson
_____________________________
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy Proverbs 27:6
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/2/2010 1:50:12 PM
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Narcil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Judson50
I am contending, Jesus taught about a “holding place” for the saved (Abraham’s Bosom) and for those unsaved (Hades) where they were held captive Luk 16:19-31.
Just wanted to point out that Hades is not where only the unsaved go.
This can be most clearly seen if one looks at the Septuagint where the Hebrew translators used "Hades" as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Sheol."
They Old Testament authors regularly use Sheol, or Hades, as simply equivalent with death:
Psalm 6:5 - For there is no mention of You in death; In Hades who will give You thanks?
Psalm 18:5 - The cords of Hades surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
Psalm 30:3 - O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Hades; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
1 Samuel 2:6 - The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Hades and raises up.
Job 14:13 - Oh that You would hide me in Hades, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
Job 17:16 - Will it go down with me to Hades? Shall we together go down into the dust?
I think that's enough for now. I hope the point is clear: Sheol and Hades are simply words that are used to describe the state of death for both believers and unbelievers. To say, "All men go to Hades" is the same as saying, "All men die."
_____________________________
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all. But whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess." - Martin Luther
My blog: Here
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/2/2010 1:56:39 PM
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Narcil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HeX0rZ
Hades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity
Or hell, right? In the English language it is hell, right?
"...This use refers the term hades to the abode of the dead in general, rather than the abode of the wicked."
Hades is not hell, it is the abode of the dead. You are absolutely right in the quoting that line above.
_____________________________
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all. But whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess." - Martin Luther
My blog: Here
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/3/2010 1:11:07 AM
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Judson50
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Narcil
quote:
ORIGINAL: Judson50
I am contending, Jesus taught about a “holding place” for the saved (Abraham’s Bosom) and for those unsaved (Hades) where they were held captive Luk 16:19-31.
Just wanted to point out that Hades is not where only the unsaved go.
This can be most clearly seen if one looks at the Septuagint where the Hebrew translators used "Hades" as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Sheol."
They Old Testament authors regularly use Sheol, or Hades, as simply equivalent with death:
Psalm 6:5 - For there is no mention of You in death; In Hades who will give You thanks?
Psalm 18:5 - The cords of Hades surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
Psalm 30:3 - O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Hades; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
1 Samuel 2:6 - The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Hades and raises up.
Job 14:13 - Oh that You would hide me in Hades, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
Job 17:16 - Will it go down with me to Hades? Shall we together go down into the dust?
I think that's enough for now. I hope the point is clear: Sheol and Hades are simply words that are used to describe the state of death for both believers and unbelievers. To say, "All men go to Hades" is the same as saying, "All men die."
I can see that Hades is not "only" for the unsaved. I see your point. I don't think that changes the overall thoughts in what I wrote. Rather "Hades" = "Holding Cell" that has 2 areas 1.) Abraham's Bosom 2.) Unnamed.
So when Revelation 20 states that "Death" and "Hades" were thrown into the Lake of Fire (I.e. Hell) and because Jesus already lead the host of captives out of Abraham's Bosom as I mentioned in a previous post. Then only the "Unsaved" are left in Hades and thus the unsaved go to Hell.
Good to Chew on. Thanks!
_____________________________
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy Proverbs 27:6
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/3/2010 11:16:15 AM
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Narcil
Posts: 202
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From: San Diego, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Judson50
I can see that Hades is not "only" for the unsaved. I see your point. I don't think that changes the overall thoughts in what I wrote. Rather "Hades" = "Holding Cell" that has 2 areas 1.) Abraham's Bosom 2.) Unnamed.
So when Revelation 20 states that "Death" and "Hades" were thrown into the Lake of Fire (I.e. Hell) and because Jesus already lead the host of captives out of Abraham's Bosom as I mentioned in a previous post. Then only the "Unsaved" are left in Hades and thus the unsaved go to Hell.
Good to Chew on. Thanks!
I believe I agree with you. Just clarifying that point. Thanks.
_____________________________
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all. But whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess." - Martin Luther
My blog: Here
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/5/2010 10:18:46 PM
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deerhunter721
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Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise".
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/7/2010 12:53:18 PM
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AskSeekKnock
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Revelation 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every one according to his work. (NKJV) The verse says My reward is WITH ME. It doesn't say as soon as you die you will be rewarded. Jesus has His reward with Him at the second coming.
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (NKJV) Here Jesus speaking to His disciples says I will come again and receive you to Myself, when? When they die? Or, at the second coming?
Our souls are not immortal. They will be, and Paul tells us when that will be. 1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (NKJV) When? At the last trumpet, at the resurrection.
The parable of Lazarus is just that, a parable. It is a parable about the Jews who said we have Abraham as our father, and thought they would go to heaven (Abraham's bosom). And it is a parable about Christ as well. Luke 16:31 "But He said to him, 'if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" (NKJV)
And, Paul said willing rather to be absent from the body, AND to be present with the Lord. Not to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He didn't want to just be absent from the body, to be unclothed (which is something to be groaned), but wanted to be further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. He wanted to be absent from the body AND to be present with the Lord. When could he attain both? At the resurrection, the second coming.
_____________________________
John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/12/2010 4:22:29 PM
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LBolt
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What I find rather fascinating is that Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and many of the people in the TaNaKH were buried in Jerusalem or Israel. Joseph insisted that his bones not be left in Egypt. Could this be in light of the resurrection? Any thoughts on this? This would make Jerusalem a burial place.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/30/2010 7:46:44 AM
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Markie51
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Dear Hexorz,
At death we are unconscious and have no memory. (Psalms 146:4; Ecc 3:20; 9;5, 6) Jesus likened death to sleep-John 11:11. See Acts 7:60.
The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other trans-lations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. The words used are she’ohl´ (Hebrew) and its equivalent hai´des, (Greek) which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also ge´en•na (Greek), which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions, it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).
This concept is a doctrine of man
Since Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, a place rather than a condition, Jesus entered within “the gates of Hades” when buried by Joseph of Arimathea. On Pentecost of 33 C.E., Peter said of Christ: “Neither was he forsaken in Hades nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.” (Acts 2:25-27, 29-32; Psalms 16:10) Whereas “the gates of Hades” (Matthew 16:18) were still holding David within their domain in Peter’s day (Acts 2:29), they had swung open for Christ Jesus when his Father resurrected him out of Hades.
The Bible makes distinctions of those who will be resurrected and of an opportunity of life everlasting. Jesus Christ gave some incite of the matter to his disciples.-Luke 12:32; John 10:16; 14:2-4.
The only ones that have a heavenly calling and receive this reward are instantly resurrected at their deaths. Such ones are “born again” and are also referred to as the “anointed.” (1 Corinthians 15:52) These anointed are limited to a comparatively few 144,000; and, they are of the first resurrection and also receive the reward of immortality.-Revelations 7:4; 14:1, 3.
Those that follow in a larger resurrection (second) receive a reward of a possible life indefinite on paradise earth. (John 10:16, Revelation 7:9 13. See Ecc. 9:5; Psalms 37:29)
Their resurrection is not instantaneous; and they remain “asleep in death” until their appointed times. (Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6, 18; Hebrews 11:13; 2 Peter 3:4) However, this condition is conditional. Those that do not remain faithful after Christ’s 1,000-year reign will be subjected to a “second death“-a permanent destruction.-Revelations 7:9, 13, 14; 20:5, 6.
Markie51,
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/30/2010 10:19:49 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Judson50
It would seem the Bible answers you question.
If an unbeliever dies they go into Hades then after the judgment, Death and Hades gets thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Let me walk through this:
I am contending, Jesus taught about a “holding place” for the saved (Abraham’s Bosom) and for those unsaved (Hades) where they were held captive Luk 16:19-31.
We know the Old Testament saints did not receive what was promised (i.e. salvation) but was approved (For salvation) by their faith (Hebrews Chapter 11); for the purpose of perfecting us (NT Saints) with them (OT Saints – who are a great host of witnesses) Hebrews 11:39-12:2
Moreover, when Jesus "descended" (died/buried) He led a host of captives as He ascended. Ephesians 4:8-10 (From Abraham's Bosom)
Those in Hades will not go to “Hell” until after the “Great White Throne Judgement” Revelation 20:11-15
Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Therefore, when Jesus died, He went to this “Holding Place” and preached the gospel to both sides of the “Holding Cell”. Jesus preached victory over death and sin. When Jesus resurrected from the dead, Jesus opened up Abraham’s Bosom and opened the doors to heaven and Jesus led a host of captives into victory over death and sin into Heaven. (Jesus’ home/city).
All those who die without faith in God/coming messiah (OT) or Jesus (NT) will all go to Hades (A very bad place) and wait there until the great white throne judgement is complete.
Moreover, the Bible states to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord (in the context of believers):
2Co 5:6-8
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
The Lord Currently resides next to the Father who is in Heaven
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 10:12 but He [Jesus], having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
Act 7:55-56 [Stephen's Stoning]
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
Therefore, when a Christian dies: He/She goes into the presence of the Lord.
When a non-Christian dies He/She goes to Hades and will reside there until the judgment and second death which is Hell.
I hope this helps!
Yep this is what I was going to say!
This is what the bible teaches.
No one goes to heaven or hell until Judgment Day!
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RE: Any thoughts? - 6/30/2010 4:37:26 PM
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Domo60
Posts: 1
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
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I agree with Judson50. If anyone reads the Word of God and keeps it in context you will discover that Hades is the abode of the died during the times before Christ even the good and righteous people such as Abraham dwelt there. The good and bad where held in different places in Hades but they were still there. After Jesus death he took those righteous died to paradise to be with Him. Now paradise is still a holding place for the died but we are with Christ our Lord who is in heaven.
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