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Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 10:41:25 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
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Many have deemed themselves to know the time of the Bridegroom coming for the Bride (Rapture).
Such as Post - Trib, Mid - Trib, Pre - Wrath, or that it occurs at a specific opening of a Seal, Trumpet or Bowl. And as such they have a lot of scripture to back up their position. Many have said that the Pre - Trib view has no scripture to support its case ( I then take this position to be the best position - Fewer scriptures to support this position).
Matt 25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (Why were five virgins so called/would be believers left and five taken? The door was shut).
Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
If God the Father is the only one who knows the time (day and hour) of the Bridegroom coming for His Bride, You then cannot fine a scripture to support your view, it is not there. If you think you are able to pigeonhole the approximate time (you are wrong)
Harold Camping has made a lot of predictions to dates for the Rapture and wrong every time. I put those who hold to a Post - Trib, Mid - Trib, Pre - Wrath and those who hold to an opening of a specific Seal, Trumpet or Bowl to be in the same Camp as Harold Camping.
For a Pre - Trib position, we think it (the Rapture) could happen tomorrow or maybe the next week. Be ready. For tomorrow or the next week is not projecting a specific day or hour. It is an unknown. But to hold the others views, it is considered as a known fact. Many have scriptures to back up their positions.
But then it is only God the Father who knows this day and hour. If God the Father is the only one who Knows this time, This day and time is not in Scripture.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 10:53:40 AM
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ENOCH2010
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Could the reason Camping being wrong so many times be.......he is a pre-triber.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 11:11:57 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ENOCH2010
Could the reason Camping being wrong so many times be.......he is a pre-triber.
Enoch2010
No, it is because he is a date setter. As are those with a Post - Trib, Mid - Trib, Pre - Wrath and most other points of view.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Who Dated the Beans? - 7/4/2010 1:10:29 PM
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Interplanner
Posts: 59
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"Date-setting" may be the most useful category expressed here. It seems pretty clear that we aren't supposed to pursue it from Mt.24 and Acts 1! Funny how that is the dominant feature of so much "escatology" or "prophecy study" instead of exclaiming the grace of Christ crucified "who has appeared at the end of the ages" (Heb.9).
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 1:54:47 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Many have deemed themselves to know the time of the Bridegroom coming for the Bride (Rapture).
Such as Post - Trib, Mid - Trib, Pre - Wrath, or that it occurs at a specific opening of a Seal, Trumpet or Bowl. And as such they have a lot of scripture to back up their position. Many have said that the Pre - Trib view has no scripture to support its case ( I then take this position to be the best position - Fewer scriptures to support this position).
Matt 25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (Why were five virgins so called/would be believers left and five taken? The door was shut).
Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
If God the Father is the only one who knows the time (day and hour) of the Bridegroom coming for His Bride, You then cannot fine a scripture to support your view, it is not there. If you think you are able to pigeonhole the approximate time (you are wrong)
Except you misread and misrepresent the scriptures. Jesus began addressing knowing both the day and the hour, speaking in the present tense. Present tense spoken 2 millennia ago is past tense today. No one but the Father knew, as He spoke, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be [future tense] (Matt 24:37 KJV), and Noah and His family knew the day of the flood: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him" (Gen 7:4-5 KJV).
Until the flood came and carried the ark away, it was business as usual for the rest. Having revealed that the Lord's servants knew the day, and the flood came upon the rest like a thief, He addressed knowing the hour: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt 24:42 KJV), saying elsewhere "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev 3:3 KJV).
There are consequences for not knowing the time of His return, just as there were for not knowing the time of His first coming: "And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation" (Luke 19:42-44 KJV). All ten virgins were virgins, but only the five wise ones went into the wedding.
quote:
Harold Camping has made a lot of predictions to dates for the Rapture and wrong every time. I put those who hold to a Post - Trib, Mid - Trib, Pre - Wrath and those who hold to an opening of a specific Seal, Trumpet or Bowl to be in the same Camp as Harold Camping.
Harold Camping is a lying false prophet who would have been stoned to death under the old covenant, prating to an audience of fools.
quote:
For a Pre - Trib position, we think it (the Rapture) could happen tomorrow or maybe the next week. Be ready. For tomorrow or the next week is not projecting a specific day or hour. It is an unknown. But to hold the others views, it is considered as a known fact. Many have scriptures to back up their positions.
But then it is only God the Father who knows this day and hour. If God the Father is the only one who Knows this time, This day and time is not in Scripture.
In Christ
Montana Marv
The time was appointed as Jesus was speaking and known to the Father then.
The Lord will reveal it to His.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 3:23:46 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 949
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Job 15:8 (King James Version)
8Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
Isaiah 40:13 (King James Version)
13Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
Matthew 11:1-15 (King James Version)
1And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Romans 11:34 (King James Version)
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
1 Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
The Lord will reveal it to His.
Peter Daniel
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 4:23:17 PM
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MysterySolved
Posts: 309
Joined: 3/2/2010
Status: online
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There are consequences when anyone arrives unexpected. But, it is impossible to be surprised when you are expecting someone at any moment.
Whether He returns today, tomorrow, or a thousand years from now, it does not change, even one iota, the way we are to live right now.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 4:52:59 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Job 15:8 (King James Version)
8Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
Isaiah 40:13 (King James Version)
13Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
Matthew 11:1-15 (King James Version)
1And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Romans 11:34 (King James Version)
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
1 Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
The Lord will reveal it to His.
Peter Daniel
I was thinking in terms of Matt 24:37 and Gen 7:4:
As in the days of Noah, the Lord reveals the day.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 5:16:42 PM
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Joshleet
Posts: 74
Joined: 6/30/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
quote:
ORIGINAL: ENOCH2010
Could the reason Camping being wrong so many times be.......he is a pre-triber.
Enoch2010
No, it is because he is a date setter. As are those with a Post - Trib, Mid - Trib, Pre - Wrath and most other points of view.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Hi Marv,
I have to take issue with what you have stated. One can HOLD A POST TRIB/ PRE WRATH view without being a date setter. We can know the season we are in, but that doesn't mean we know the day or Hour. As a matter of fact, why would Jesus even tell us what to look for concerning His return, if He didn't want us to be able to discern the season we are in. consider the following scriptures....
quote:
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world: the good seed are the children of the kingdom: But the tares are the children of the wicked one: The enemy that soweth them is the devil; THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD (age) ; and the REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
NOTICE THE reapers are the angels. Where do we witness the angels reaping in the Book of revelation? it is in the 14th Chapter.
quote:
Rev. 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the mcloud thrust in His sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped.
Now if we stopped here, it wouldn't be clear as to who was being reaped. However, revelation continues with yet another "reaper" that prepares the World for the great wine press of the wrath of God.
quote:
Rev. 14:17 And ANOTHER ANGEL came out of the temple which is in heaven, he ALSO HAVING A SHARP SICKLE. And another angel came from the altar which had power over fire: and dried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God
These two angelic reapers are the very ones Jesus Spoke of IN Matthew 13. We can use yet another scripture to establish WHen this event occurs, IN THE ORDER OF EVENTS, but still not actually be a date setter.
quote:
Joel 3:12-15 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to Judge all the heathen round about. PUT YE IN THE SICKLE, FOR THE HARVEST IS RIPE: COME, GET YE DOWN: FOR THE PRESS IS FULL, THE FATS OVERFLOW, FOR THEIR WICKEDNESS IS GREAT. MULTITUDES, MULTITUDES IN THE VALLEY OF DECISION. For the day of the Lord is NEAR in the Valley of decision. The SUN and the MOON shall be darkened. and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Jesus makes it quite clear that there will be two harvests at the end of the age. The first of the good seed, the second of the bad. The "harvest of believers" (as I like to call it) is quite simple to figure out WHen this season will occur. We can discern Where in the order of events this will occur, without necessarily setting a date to the event itself.
Looking at the scriptures I posted, We can conclude...
1. At the end of the age these Two harvests occur
2. The angels are the reapers.
3. We witness the Two angels go forth in Revelation 14.
4. According to Joel 3:12-15 this occurs when the day of the lord is near.
5. Also according to Joel 3:12-15, the sun and moon are darkened at this same time period, the sickles are thrust in.
6. However, the Sun and moon are darkened (according to matthew 24:29) IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.
7. This would place the two harvests, Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, but just prior to the start of the day of the Lord.
If we don't fully comprehend the time of our visitation, then how will we know we are not accepting an imposter?
It will be at the completion of the 70th week, which is also the completion of the reign of the false messiah, Which is ALSO the end of the age, that we witness these two harvests. The true day of the Lord will follow immediately after the tribulation of Those days.
There has been great cornfusion over this, due to most trying to apply what occurs in the time of Jacob's trouble, the seventieth week of daniel, as being part of the day of the Lord. According to Ezekiel 30:3, the day of the Lord is called the "time of the Heathen" The Lord deals with first HIS PEOPLE in their time. Followed by the retribution he will mete out on the heathen IN the day of the Lord, for What they did TO his people in the seventieth week.
If one can discern these simple truths, then it will be quite easy to understand when the season will be when the angels go forth and reap the earth.
WE WILL BE at the marriage supper, as the wrath of God is poured out on those who have accepted the false messiah as the real, has recieved His "mark" and has Worshipped Him as their God.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 6:13:00 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 949
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ivardboneless
I was thinking in terms of Matt 24:37 and Gen 7:4:
As in the days of Noah, the Lord reveals the day.
Hello ivardboneless,
It is good to meet you in this conversation ivardboneless. Matt 24:37 and Gen 7:4 reminds me of this truth... To consider the steadfastness of Job and to be reminded of this covenant which the LORD has set in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between the Lord and the earth for all future generations. This includes us who see this rainbow and remember that covenant.
Genesis 9:11-17
11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." 12And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 13I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." 17God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth."
James 5
Patience in Suffering
7Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. 8You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door. 10As an example of suffering and patience, brothers, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.
12But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your "yes" be yes and your "no" be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.
Peter
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 7:42:34 PM
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Interplanner
Posts: 59
Joined: 6/28/2010
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Unless most of Jesus' remarks refer to the 'great revolt' and destruction of Jerusalem, and many do, and were specifically drawing language from Dan. 9. Perhaps that is why 2 Pet. 3 and others (I Cor. 15) are so general (non-Judaistic) in describing the last day.
A great summary of the events of the 'great revolt' etc. that express that situation in terms of Mt. 24 can be found in J. Zens letter "Identifying the Great Tribulation" in SEARCHING TOGETHER Fall-Winter 2005, Vol.33:3-4 (triple issue), searchingtogether.org.
When I started my master's research it was on the relation between Luke-Acts and the revolt.
Marcus
producer www.interplans.net
related title: THE GOSPEL I NEVER KNEW
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/4/2010 7:58:10 PM
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awstar
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Plan as though we'll be here a hundred years. Live as though He'll call us home today. -- a Gideon trustee.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 12:00:00 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Joshleet
If one says that the Rapture is tied to a specific event, that is date setting. In other words, Post -Trib is a known time, end of the age (after the trib.). To say that the Rapture will happen Mid - Trib is also date setting. One is tying the Rapture to a known timed event. The same with Pre - Wrath, the Rapture is now tied to the time just prior to the Wrath of God. The same is with a specific Seal, Trumpet or Bowl. Anytime you set the Rapture as occurring with any known event, that is date setting. The Rapture will occur when the cow jumps over the moon. This is date setting. The Rapture will happen at 6 PM next Tues. 6 PM next Tues. is a known time, also date setting. To set a date is to say that God the Father is not the only one who knows the time and hour.
Now again scripture says that only God the Father knows the time and hour. If He is the only one who Knows, The date (time and hour) is not described in the Bible. Only the event of the Rapture is mentioned.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 12:02:46 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 811
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Joshleet
...
quote:
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world: the good seed are the children of the kingdom: But the tares are the children of the wicked one: The enemy that soweth them is the devil; THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD (age) ; and the REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS.
...
Sorry, but your premise here is wrong. Matthew 13 is about the KINGDOM! Consequently, it is about that time following the first 1000 years of His kingdom, not after the "seven years of Tribulation."
Note the last words of the parable of the wheat and tares:
Matt 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
Compare this with Revelation 20 and I Corinthians 15:
Rev 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
Therefore, through harmonizing these three passages, we learn that this will be the time of the Great White Throne Judgment, which FOLLOWS the Millennium, not Rev. 14 which is BEFORE the Millennium.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 10:34:54 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 804
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Joshleet
If one says that the Rapture is tied to a specific event, that is date setting. In other words, Post -Trib is a known time, end of the age (after the trib.). To say that the Rapture will happen Mid - Trib is also date setting. One is tying the Rapture to a known timed event. The same with Pre - Wrath, the Rapture is now tied to the time just prior to the Wrath of God. The same is with a specific Seal, Trumpet or Bowl. Anytime you set the Rapture as occurring with any known event, that is date setting. The Rapture will occur when the cow jumps over the moon. This is date setting. The Rapture will happen at 6 PM next Tues. 6 PM next Tues. is a known time, also date setting. To set a date is to say that God the Father is not the only one who knows the time and hour.
Now again scripture says that only God the Father knows the time and hour. If He is the only one who Knows, The date (time and hour) is not described in the Bible. Only the event of the Rapture is mentioned.
In Christ
Montana Marv
MMarve, Shalom.
I am sure that this has been asked a number of times, but I still draw a blank in my mind,,,but,,, where on earth does Jesus, or the Bible say that 'date setting,' #1 is the abomination that so many indicate that it be? #2 When Jesus said that 'Only the Father knows the Day and Hour,' is it possible, that yet another 'Hebraism' is at play as a 'Clue' to the actual date, keeping in mind that Jesus was speaking to Jewish people, at the time He said His words, and they would know exactly the date that Jesus was making reference to??
You see, I truly have a problem figuring out how something is forbidden, when God spent so much time, and many words, bringing things to our conscious mind-set, even to the point of telling us (using reverse psychology) that those who didn't pay attention to His words, and the 'Signs,' would have Him arriving,,,,,""""As a Thief, in the Night."""" Jesus didn't say that we were not supposed to know, only that the day and hour we couldn't know,,,(and there is a Feast Day, that comes on a day and hour, 'no man knows the day and hour' to celebrate, but must know the general time, so as to be 'Prepared for it.'
As I read God's word, I tend to see a much higher percentage of it as Prophetic, way over the twenty-five percent the teachers say is Prophetic,,,more like forty percent, if I could actually figure out the real numbers.
Hebraism seems to be a factor that most Christians do not see, especially when reading God's word in English (or any other language for that matter), as Hebraism's are extremely difficult to deduce the true meaning, unless well versed in the Hebrew mind-set. Example: Jews are notorious for answering a question, with a question.....Yet, in their Question/Answer, when one truly searches the words, the answer can be found. A Translator, versed only in the vocabularies basic meaning, will miss the Hebraism almost every time, and only think that the statement must not have been transcribed properly, or some such thought.
Sorry, I Prattle-on-and-on. If anyone can explain so I can balance with God's word, why it is that one cannot try to understand God, and His word, I need know, so I can straighten out my inquisitiveness, and mature to a proper level of Christianity, instead of my present level of Christi-insanity. The only time, as I see it, that a person IS a False Prophet, is when he/she speaks as if the words are received from God (eg: Thus Sayeth the LORD type verbiage), but not when simply saying 'as I see it,' or IMO, or 'could this be??'
In Messiah, Keep the Watch, Redemption draws nigh. Arley
Today: OFU (old, fat, ugly), Very Soon: YBSP (young, beautiful, strong, pure). Yeee-Haaa!!! and AMEN
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 11:31:01 AM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Joshleet
If one says that the Rapture is tied to a specific event, that is date setting. In other words, Post -Trib is a known time, end of the age (after the trib.). To say that the Rapture will happen Mid - Trib is also date setting. One is tying the Rapture to a known timed event. The same with Pre - Wrath, the Rapture is now tied to the time just prior to the Wrath of God. The same is with a specific Seal, Trumpet or Bowl. Anytime you set the Rapture as occurring with any known event, that is date setting. The Rapture will occur when the cow jumps over the moon. This is date setting. The Rapture will happen at 6 PM next Tues. 6 PM next Tues. is a known time, also date setting. To set a date is to say that God the Father is not the only one who knows the time and hour.
Now again scripture says that only God the Father knows the time and hour. If He is the only one who Knows, The date (time and hour) is not described in the Bible. Only the event of the Rapture is mentioned.
In Christ
Montana Marv
MMarve, Shalom.
I am sure that this has been asked a number of times, but I still draw a blank in my mind,,,but,,, where on earth does Jesus, or the Bible say that 'date setting,' #1 is the abomination that so many indicate that it be? #2 When Jesus said that 'Only the Father knows the Day and Hour,' is it possible, that yet another 'Hebraism' is at play as a 'Clue' to the actual date, keeping in mind that Jesus was speaking to Jewish people, at the time He said His words, and they would know exactly the date that Jesus was making reference to??
You see, I truly have a problem figuring out how something is forbidden, when God spent so much time, and many words, bringing things to our conscious mind-set, even to the point of telling us (using reverse psychology) that those who didn't pay attention to His words, and the 'Signs,' would have Him arriving,,,,,""""As a Thief, in the Night."""" Jesus didn't say that we were not supposed to know, only that the day and hour we couldn't know,,,(and there is a Feast Day, that comes on a day and hour, 'no man knows the day and hour' to celebrate, but must know the general time, so as to be 'Prepared for it.'
As I read God's word, I tend to see a much higher percentage of it as Prophetic, way over the twenty-five percent the teachers say is Prophetic,,,more like forty percent, if I could actually figure out the real numbers.
Hebraism seems to be a factor that most Christians do not see, especially when reading God's word in English (or any other language for that matter), as Hebraism's are extremely difficult to deduce the true meaning, unless well versed in the Hebrew mind-set. Example: Jews are notorious for answering a question, with a question.....Yet, in their Question/Answer, when one truly searches the words, the answer can be found. A Translator, versed only in the vocabularies basic meaning, will miss the Hebraism almost every time, and only think that the statement must not have been transcribed properly, or some such thought.
Sorry, I Prattle-on-and-on. If anyone can explain so I can balance with God's word, why it is that one cannot try to understand God, and His word, I need know, so I can straighten out my inquisitiveness, and mature to a proper level of Christianity, instead of my present level of Christi-insanity. The only time, as I see it, that a person IS a False Prophet, is when he/she speaks as if the words are received from God (eg: Thus Sayeth the LORD type verbiage), but not when simply saying 'as I see it,' or IMO, or 'could this be??'
In Messiah, Keep the Watch, Redemption draws nigh. Arley
Today: OFU (old, fat, ugly), Very Soon: YBSP (young, beautiful, strong, pure). Yeee-Haaa!!! and AMEN
It doesn't. The holy days prophesy the things to come (Col 2:16-17) and He tells us that as in the days of Noah we will know the day (Matt 24:37, Gen 7:4-5). He tells us it comes upon the lost as a thief (Matt 24:38-39). And He tells us to watch to know the hour, for if we don't watch we won't know the hour and He will come upon us as a thief: "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt 24:42 KJV): "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev 3:3 KJV).
One scripture that has been offered is "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7 KJV), in which the apostles are being told the knowledge is not for them, but later. It's evidence that it wasn't expected in their lives.
Some extra-scriptural evidence of the time:
Early Church Father Tertullian (circa 160-225 AD):
"But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although
before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be
after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of
Jerusalem, 'let down from heaven,'"[Five Books Against Marcion, Book 3,
Chapter 25]
Early Church Father Justin Martyr (circa 100-165 AD):
"We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is
as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was
a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ,
who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who
believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that
thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment
of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, 'They
shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the
angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'"[ THE SECOND APOLOGY
OF JUSTIN FOR THE CHRISTIANS ADDRESSED TO THE ROMAN SENATE, Chap 81]
Early Church Father Irenaeus (circa 130-202 AD):
"For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall
it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: Thus the heaven and
the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a
conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested
upon the seventh day from all His works.' This is an account of the things
formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day
of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were
completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the
sixth thousand year. Irenaeus against Hersies, Book 5, Chap 28, sec 3
"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he
will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at
Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the
glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake
of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that
is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the
promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that 'many coming
from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob.'Irenaeus against Hersies, Book 5, Chap 30, sec 4
"The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of
the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the
dead." Irenaeus against Hersies, Book 5, Chap 33, sec 3
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 11:49:55 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Navyblueret
I tried not to imply that date setting was an abomination. I was comparing date setters with Harold Camping. He has been lamb blasted by those in this forum. One major difference is that HC says he is a prophet. Which we know from past prophecy statements that he is wrong. Also I was implying that if only God the Father knows this date of the Rapture, it's time is not revealed in the Bible. So many choices! So Scripture used to back up these proposed dates (Pre - Wrath, Post - Trib, Mid - Trib, at the 6th Seal, or whatever), a lot of choices, is just that a lot of Scripture. If you look at how all these thread together, the basis it is the Rapture must occur with one, in conjunction to one or very near to one of the events. All these events can be timed or be approximately correct from the onset of the last seven years (to most of us ) or to the last 3 1/2 years to (Roy and a few others). Or when the A/C is revealed. When the A/C makes his appearance, a prophetic (seven year) time period begins.
Now we would like the Rapture to occur today, it may. But like a post above, be ready (prepare) as if it were to be today, but keep your plans open for the future. For no one knows the time or hour of the Rapture, but only the Father in Heaven. The same is with death, no one knows when their time is. Date setters chances of being correct are almost Zero. It is a guessing game.
This is why I am Pre - Trib. It is the Rapture which sets off the onset to the Tribulation, but is not tied to any events in the tribulation. You cannot give a time to a Pre -Trib Rapture, still working with an unknown (For only God the Father knows the time and hour). When those push into the tribulation, all the events have timing. It could be during the tribulation that the Raptures happens, so then it may occur on day 2 or day 2002 of the tribulation, and not being tied to an event.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 12:20:42 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 949
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Genesis 9:16-17
16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."
17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."
Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Both of these cause us to look up to see!
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 1:11:50 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Arley
To get to some of your (our) other dilemmas. We will never know/see everything (I Cor 13:9,10,13 - For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. - Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face.). Yes we look forward to an incorruptible body and a time without sin. As PeterD implied, Look up for our redemption draws near. What was the term David Ring, an evangelist with Multiple Sclerosis says. "God don't make any Junk", "I've got MS, what's your problem". He was referring to spreading the Good News. No matter what our disability, God is there.
If the time of the Rapture was given, Guess What? People would continue doing what they have been doing and jump on the "band wagon" just before that date. If the date is unknown, we better be ready before hand. It is not forbidden, just unknown.
When something happens to us (usually bad); we respond, "why me God?" Another response is "Why not me?". God allows us to receive what we can handle.
You are anxious for the Rapture, You know you are going up, Just keep truck'n and try to bring others with you.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 3:04:27 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 804
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
Harold Camping. Isn't he the minister who had Jesus coming in 1988, or there-abouts? I don't remember the name of the guy, but I sure do know the effect of his Rapture command, to get rid of everything one owned, so they wouldn't leave any mess behind, and be ready to be zapped out of here, at a certain hour,,,yadda yadda yadda?? My daughter and her husband were so sure he was right, they did exactly that.......Guess who had to set them up with new living conditions, furniture, automobile, etc?? Yep, Dear Old Dad.
No one need worry that I would ever SET a Rapture date,,,,I will, if I believe I know, suggest the possibility of when it might, possibly, maybe, happen,,,,but I am one dude no one need worry about Locking in a Day nor Hour,,,,,,,,,,,Unless, Jesus put His Face up to my face, and said:::: """""This is the DAY, and HOUR, I am coming,,,,,,SPREAD THE WORD!!!""""" Whew-eee!!! I would be on a street-corner within the hour, just after I changed my under-clothing, and screaming, in Joy that He actually Told Me!!! (Caps, and junk, is only for emphasis....Ha)
If I am wrong about Pre-Trib Rapture, then I have plenty of days following the realization that we are in the Tribulation, to further: Keep the Watch. I am prepared for most of the worst that can happen, in the Tribulation (fully intending that a 'Left-Behinder' gets to use my supplies, and such), as a 'just in case, and I must suffer a few days of the Tribulation,,probably in jail, for shouting, from yet another street-corner, that everyone within earshot, must R E P E N T ! ! ! ! ! (Kinda like John the Baptizer, in the movies).. Oh, that will be a blast, until they take my Oxygen tank away, and I graduate to my Lord. But I Prattle....Nice chatting, and thanks for the responses, folks. I do love talking about my Savior, Jesus.
In Messiah, Keep the Watch, as I just may be right.
Arley (Today: OFU (old fat ugly)), (Very Soon: YBSM (young beautiful strong married)
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/5/2010 3:56:33 PM
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ivardboneless
Posts: 129
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Arley
To get to some of your (our) other dilemmas. We will never know/see everything (I Cor 13:9,10,13 - For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. - Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face.). Yes we look forward to an incorruptible body and a time without sin. As PeterD implied, Look up for our redemption draws near. What was the term David Ring, an evangelist with Multiple Sclerosis says. "God don't make any Junk", "I've got MS, what's your problem". He was referring to spreading the Good News. No matter what our disability, God is there.
If the time of the Rapture was given, Guess What? People would continue doing what they have been doing and jump on the "band wagon" just before that date. If the date is unknown, we better be ready before hand. It is not forbidden, just unknown.
If they knew the time of the rapture, they would be guaranteed that their next heart beat wouldn't be their last?
quote:
When something happens to us (usually bad); we respond, "why me God?" Another response is "Why not me?". God allows us to receive what we can handle.
You are anxious for the Rapture, You know you are going up, Just keep truck'n and try to bring others with you.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Unfortunatly, scripture says He will come upon us like a thief if we do not watch to know the time: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee"
(Rev 3:3 KJV): "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thess 5:4 KJV).
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/7/2010 1:01:43 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 811
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Arley.
You've been on this forum for some time; so you know that I don't believe in a pretribulational rapture. HOWEVER, I'm not so presumptuous to say that God COULDN'T rapture us all before the final tribulation occurs. If He so chooses, you know me: BEAM ME UP, SCOTTY!
On the other hand, I still BELIEVE that Yeshua` (in Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; and Luke 21) and Yochanan (in Revelation), supplemented by Sha'ul (Paul in 1Thes. 4 and 1Cor. 15) were making it clear that the "rapture" or rather the "harpazo," the "Snatching Away," will happen SHORTLY before His arrival in Isra'el--that it will be a PART of His Second Coming--the gathering of His armies for war! I just believe that the REASONS for the rapture have to be better than "because we're not supposed to suffer in God's Wrath." He can protect us ANYWHERE at ANY TIME, no matter where we are on the globe and no matter how close in location or in time we may be to "ground zero!"
I still believe that the rapture is our "mass transit system" to get us to Isra'el in a hurry! The Israelites will be in danger of annihilation! Genocide will be attempted again, and they will have cried out in one voice, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YAH!" "We welcome the Comer with YAH'S authority (i.e., even if he's the 'Jesus' of the Missionaries)!"
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Who Spilt the Beans? - 7/7/2010 9:28:02 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 804
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Arley.
You've been on this forum for some time; so you know that I don't believe in a pretribulational rapture. HOWEVER, I'm not so presumptuous to say that God COULDN'T rapture us all before the final tribulation occurs. If He so chooses, you know me: BEAM ME UP, SCOTTY!
On the other hand, I still BELIEVE that Yeshua` (in Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; and Luke 21) and Yochanan (in Revelation), supplemented by Sha'ul (Paul in 1Thes. 4 and 1Cor. 15) were making it clear that the "rapture" or rather the "harpazo," the "Snatching Away," will happen SHORTLY before His arrival in Isra'el--that it will be a PART of His Second Coming--the gathering of His armies for war! I just believe that the REASONS for the rapture have to be better than "because we're not supposed to suffer in God's Wrath." He can protect us ANYWHERE at ANY TIME, no matter where we are on the globe and no matter how close in location or in time we may be to "ground zero!"
I still believe that the rapture is our "mass transit system" to get us to Isra'el in a hurry! The Israelites will be in danger of annihilation! Genocide will be attempted again, and they will have cried out in one voice, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YAH!" "We welcome the Comer with YAH'S authority (i.e., even if he's the 'Jesus' of the Missionaries)!"
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Roy, Shalom, But of course you are a Pre-Tribulation Rapturist!! You just don't know it yet, but will as we lift off and boogie for Home, all of us with super-grins on our faces, not having to worry about our false teeth falling out, or wearing goggles. I have never heard you admit your real feelings about the Rapture, but then, like I just said, you don't know your true feelings yet. Oh, I can tell I am in trouble now. Ha!
If you all want pure truth, I can not quote a single verse that S A Y S there is a Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church, parse. If the Bible did say, exactly, or in an 'around the bush' notice, we would know, and so would Satan.....he can read better than we can...he even knows all the old styles of Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.....Satan is actually smarter than us, in certain ways, but dumber in others.
Most all of you, brothers and sisters, are far better versed than I am,,,,so please ponder this.::
Look for promises of protection, safety, completion, and so on, especially the one to the Church of Philly.....that promise is to all seven churches, as are all the other six promises.....anyone who is an 'overcomer' will be saved from the ''''''testing'''''. That, dear hearts is where I derive my 'Hope' for a Pre-Trib Rapture. I actually see one Rapture (with or without mortal body, I don't know), and two Resurrections (these two, include the old mortal bodies being rebuilt)
Right or Wrong, I Hope. I Study. I Pray. I even play the Audio Bible all night, to better learn. I learn much from all of you (food for thought), and I chew it at least 32 times, to make sure I don't get Faith cavities. I love studying and talking about Jesus.
I cannot say you are wrong, Roy, nor can I say same about any other person, including self. I am constantly learning, more and more, and adjusting my overview of God to what I learn in His word.
In Messiah, some think I talk too much,,,,,not me. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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