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RE: Duggars - 2/20/2010 5:23:02 AM
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Annie64
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The thing about them moving into a house that used to be owned by an early proponent of birth control reminded me of the atheistic philosopher--I don't remember who it was, but it was somewhere in Europe--whose house later became a Bible society.
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RE: Duggars - 2/20/2010 8:23:00 PM
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sharonjef2007
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I just need to make a quick vent and then I need to bid this thread and the Duggars farewell.
I have been following the blog for "Razing Ruth." I know, she is not a member of the Duggar family. But, I am starting to feel really strongly that the ATI and Gothard lifestyle is not just anti-Christian, but is outright dangerous. How do we know? Well, apparently Ruth's father has threatened her life now. Right here, in her blog. Her father is a major player in the ATI movement.
Now, I have been a bit put off from the beginning about how the Duggars on their website, in their book and in their show make links and references to ATI. But nobody really knows what that means unless they really dig into it. I had never even heard of Gothard. And yet, I have yet to read or hear them mention "Bill Gothard" in anything they do. It is wrong and it is decieving. And, I really think they are lending too much attention and good press to the ATI lifestyle without REALLY owning up to it. A lifestyle that I now see as wrong and dangerous.
So, I'm not giving them any more of my time, viewership, money through royalties nor another thought. I do still have their book. If anyone wants it, let me know and I'll send it to you. I want all references to them out of this house. Am I going overboard? Perhaps. However, I feel that strongly that through their deceiving advertisement of Gothard and ATI practices they could potentially do a lot of harm to a lot of familes and people.
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RE: Duggars - 2/20/2010 8:35:20 PM
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bolt.
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To 'go overboard' (or not) for the sake of one's values is a perfectly valid personal choice. Not to worry.
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RE: Duggars - 2/20/2010 10:00:20 PM
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pink..
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From: Indiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
I just need to make a quick vent and then I need to bid this thread and the Duggars farewell.
I have been following the blog for "Razing Ruth." I know, she is not a member of the Duggar family. But, I am starting to feel really strongly that the ATI and Gothard lifestyle is not just anti-Christian, but is outright dangerous. How do we know? Well, apparently Ruth's father has threatened her life now. Right here, in her blog. Her father is a major player in the ATI movement.
Now, I have been a bit put off from the beginning about how the Duggars on their website, in their book and in their show make links and references to ATI. But nobody really knows what that means unless they really dig into it. I had never even heard of Gothard. And yet, I have yet to read or hear them mention "Bill Gothard" in anything they do. It is wrong and it is decieving. And, I really think they are lending too much attention and good press to the ATI lifestyle without REALLY owning up to it. A lifestyle that I now see as wrong and dangerous.
So, I'm not giving them any more of my time, viewership, money through royalties nor another thought. I do still have their book. If anyone wants it, let me know and I'll send it to you. I want all references to them out of this house. Am I going overboard? Perhaps. However, I feel that strongly that through their deceiving advertisement of Gothard and ATI practices they could potentially do a lot of harm to a lot of familes and people.
I'm not saying what you're doing is right or wrong, because it's really your personal decision. I'm just wondering, if they were Mormons or JWs, would you feel the same way?
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RE: Duggars - 2/20/2010 10:04:26 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
I'm not saying what you're doing is right or wrong, because it's really your personal decision. I'm just wondering, if they were Mormons or JWs, would you feel the same way?
If they were either of those I would never have started watching.
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RE: Duggars - 2/21/2010 12:16:57 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Sharon, you do what you have to do. I can sort of understand. I think the actual ATI organization is...off. Every time it's even come up on my radar my gut feeling has been "No" and a complete and utter lack of interest.
OTOH, I still have (and use) literature from the cult my family was part of. In terms of art, music, education, and historical stuff, and certain high-quality products, they were excellent. They misused the talents God gave them and the leadership abused people, but in the midst of that the "common folk" in that cult produced some things I wish were available to the world.
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"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
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RE: Duggars - 2/21/2010 12:42:17 AM
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GlassMoonWaltzes
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Maggie, I saw your post to razingruth. Very nice. 
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 9:30:00 AM
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SuzanneDeAz
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Years ago I had a bad experience with someone who attended one of Bill Gothard conference. I was in my first year of teaching, in my early 20's. I was teaching at a private Christian school operated by two independant Baptist preachers. They were very strict, however, once they attended this conference and had the staff attend it as well, on the othe pastors/principal became a control freak. He wanted me to give up my new car which I bought the summer before being employed. He said because I did not "consult" him in buying it I should give it up. So he lowered my salary where I no longer could afford it. I was getting a small salary to begin with and now it was even lower. He said he wanted me to live in his basement and become a "protestant nun". I finished the year out and "ran" and went home and worked at two more Christian schools for the next two years and then ended up teaching the next 20 years in Public schools.
I found out that men like control and ATI just gave them "permission" to do so. A few years later I came back to the City for a visit and met the pastor and his wife for dinner and he said that he purposely made my life miserable because he wanted me to go home to be under the covering of my mother. He said that he hired two other single women since I left and did the same thing to them. What was ironic was that my mom and I were living together but I was the head of the household. I bought a home and had my mother live with me for the next ten years, till I got married.
I think this organization brings out what is in a person. This man, as I found out during my employment, was very controlling and lost his own son who had nothing to do with him. I found out his son was whipped for disobeying in his senior year of high school and was embarressed when he showered as others could see the welts on his back.
This does not mean the Duggars are abusive as maybe it is not in their nature to be abusive. However, if a person is prone to be a control freak or abusive then following ATI teachings just makes it worse.
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Mother of Darlene, great aunt to Ashley, Elyzah, Aden and baby Elahn (Michelle's 4 angels) Note Michelle passed away into the presence of our Lord on Oct. 23, 2005 leaving behind her 4 angels at age 32.
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 9:39:19 AM
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Saltlight_2188
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Did anyone notice how they're not really teaching the children themselves anymore, but leaving it to the computer programs and/or the older ones? Maybe they got tired of the School of the Dining Room Table?
It was beautiful and touching when Michelle finally got to hold Josie, though.
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 9:52:09 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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I am really confused about the whole ATI thing. 
It's obvious the Duggar's have some connection, and it's obvious (to me) that ATI at it's core is very "off".
But if what I'm hearing about ATI is true, then it's also obvious that the Duggar's aren't "following" it very closely. Their main school curriculum is not ATI. They associate with all sorts of people not like them. Their kids are exposed to a lot that would seem to go against ATI rulings. The kind of studied avoidance of facts described with ATI doesn't fit with what the Duggar kids are exposed to, including the presence of non-ATI film crews who like to ask questions and see what kind of answers they get from the kids. The Duggar's do not seem fearful of the crews influence on their children when they are away. And they certainly aren't living a particularly regimented life, or one that's hidden away from the world.
So people's descriptions of ATI do not match what I'm seeing in the Duggars.
***********
I did like this weeks episode, and the replay of the one from last week. John-David seems like a really neat kid, very clever, responsible. I think he enjoyed being "the big man" and responsible for the properties, and getting to do the water line repair.
Their homeschooling looks a lot like ours. Some school on computer, a lot of noise and movement, some bookwork, playing outside, and things get learned anyway. It looked to me like the older ones were able to "retreat" to a quieter spot if they needed to, and the little ones learn in a group.
So happy for Michelle to finally get to hold her baby!
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"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 9:58:11 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Did anyone notice how they're not really teaching the children themselves anymore, but leaving it to the computer programs and/or the older ones? Maybe they got tired of the School of the Dining Room Table?
Maybe they found individual course work worked better for their kids? With the range of ages they have now, they couldn't possibly have everyone at the table at the same time for all subjects. I only have three, and they're close together in age, and there are only some things they can all do together. They also need work that will challenge them and keep them moving forward, and sometimes a lessons on computer are just the thing.
I never, never thought my kids would learn on computer or from a video. I thought I was way above that, that it was lazy, and potentially harmful. That was when I was a teen. Now that I'm a homeschooling mom, I think differently.  I still prefer not to have all their learning on the computer, and that's why we didn't pick the online option from our cyberschool. But I see nothing wrong with the Duggar kids doing Switched On Schoolhouse, especially given the many life-learning opportunities they have on top of that, and their musical pursuits. It's clearly not all day spent slouched at the computer. And the parents may not be eyeball-to-eyeball across the kitchen table with the kids, but they're still clearly there, participating and teaching, both with groups of kids and when an individual needs some help or encouragement.
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"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 10:02:29 AM
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Saltlight_2188
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From: the Wiregrass SE Alabama
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Nothing wrong with SOS, I used it myself. Just seems like there's been a shift in ideology about their homeschooling. I'm not being snarky, I promise, I just find it interesting. I have no problem with the older ones learning on their own, but IMO, the little ones still need Mom teaching them, not big sis or big bro.
ETA: Yes, I KNOW Mom's a little distracted with Josie right now, but even 2-3 days a week would be better than nothing.
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Mercy triumphs over judgment
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 10:11:21 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Nothing wrong with SOS, I used it myself. Just seems like there's been a shift in ideology about their homeschooling. I'm not being snarky, I promise, I just find it interesting. I have no problem with the older ones learning on their own, but IMO, the little ones still need Mom teaching them, not big sis or big bro.
I know.
I hope changing homeschool ideology is allowed.  We all change. If they've shifted away from ATI.....who-hoo!
I flip channels in during commercials, so maybe I missed it. I did see JB and Michelle with the little ones while they were learning, but not the older kids teaching. I know they talk about how they do that, and Michelle described that, but I've never actually noticed it.  I would say my kids learn a lot from each other, but it definitely wouldn't mean that they're creating lesson plans, managing classes, etc. They "teach" each other with conversations they have, or the older one explaining to a younger one what he's learned in "kid talk". Which is great.
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Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 10:14:26 AM
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Saltlight_2188
Posts: 1953
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From: the Wiregrass SE Alabama
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LOL, yeah...I kept hoping they were rinsing those potatoes after repeatedly dropping them in the trash can!
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Mercy triumphs over judgment
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 11:15:53 AM
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Sideways
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Michelle has stated openly that part of the buddy system is for the older ones to help the younger ones with their lessons. They talked about it during last night's episode and showed one of the older girls giving a handwriting lesson.
It does seem that the Duggars are on the more relaxed end of ATI, or that they've slowly drifted away during the years that they've been doing all the TV stuff, or we just aren't seeing everything. Probably a little of everything.
Younger boys sometimes "help" with kitchen work, but older boys rarely do. They had an episode which showed a jursistiction switch, and the older boys had to be taught how to make tator tot casserole. It appears to be very rare that the older boys cook, and having the young boys in the kitchen was more a way to keep them busy/keep an eye on them while the older girls cook.
Let's not kid ourselves, the older girls still get the lion's share of the work, and aren't pursuing any post high school activities like Josh and JD.
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RE: Duggars - 3/10/2010 4:03:22 PM
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Sideways
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Eh? I don't think JB is a jerk, even though I wouldn't want to be married to him. But I don't think I've ever said he was a jerk. I think the girls do help with some of the simpler lessons, and the concept of teaching is a fluid one. The computer does the bulk of the older kids' teaching, and a range of people and programs do the younger kids' teaching.
I do think that to much weight is placed on the older girls, and I really hate that none of them appear to be free to pursue an outside life in the same way that Josh and JD do. (But appearances could be deceiving, we just haven't seen any of the girls take on a paying job or take post high school training.)
Are they rigid? Well, that's a matter of perspective. By the strictest ATI standards, probably not. But yes, it appears as though JD and Joseph have been able to feel themselves and tidy the house. LOL
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I just don't think they are nearly as rigid as people assume. The two boys who are on their own are managing not to starve to death or live in filth without womenfolk around. 