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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/12/2009 4:41:30 PM
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tz3
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I used to think this way and the problem with it is it is a very worldly view of things. Just because the person is not an income producer does not mean that they are any less valuable. In fact I would like to prove the opposite.
A stay at home mom does the following for which you would have to pay a professional to replace her in the event she were unable to do it:
Care Giver, Childs play mate, chef, dietition, grocery shopper and errind runner (ie taking the car to the garage to be worked on, doctors appointments etc) laundry attendant, maid, gardener, party planner, social calendar organizer, accountant, teacher, spiritual guide, nurse, taxi driver, councilor, sounding board, trainer, coach, photographer, decorator/designer, baker, sewer, dancer, mistress, entertainer, lover, friend and in some cases mechanic or handy man for small jobs. Have you priced what professionals charge to do these things? Yet stay at home mom's and dad's are expected to do these things day in and day out in silence and lonelyness. You try staying home 24/7 with children that can't hold down an intelegent conversation and see how many points your IQ drops. Yet men and women alike in the work place look down on parents who choose to stay at home and raise a family. But statistics have shown that in families where the stay at home parent works hard at raising well grounded godly children that the families are healthier and happier on the whole and society reaps the benefits of a generation that knows how to properly conduct themselves once they are out on their own. This is a pay off for which there is no way to put a price tag on it unless you compare such grown individuals against the most messed up our society has to offer.
Single mom's and dad's quickly learn exactly what they have lost, given up or didn't work hard enough to keep when they have to do their work and the work of a missing spouce all in order to try to raise well adjusted children. Even those that are widow/ers learn this lesson and their loss is not by choice.
While it is prudent to make out a Last Will and Testement even if you do not currently own worldly possession a Last Will and Testement covers much more than what to do with my clothing or my electronics or gun collection or spoon collection it has to do with knowing where the money is kept and how much is owed and to whom and what all the account numbers are and how to access those accounts and points of contact so that your serviving spouce and children or charity are provided for.
In contrast a pre nup is traditionally about dividing up assests or preventing assests from going to a spouce in the event of a marriage disolving. In some States I understand that pre nups are not recognized where children are involved. A pre nup only covers alamony paid to the astrainged spouce not child support which is strickly to provide for the child's needs.
As in the case where someone is worth money and remarries and has enough money to pass down to his/her children upon passing a last will and testament should be sufficiant to cover these details; a pre nup would not be used here. A pre nup would only be used if there was a concern that the new spouce and or his/her children would try to claim anything after a divorce; maybe if they divorced and then the person possessing the greater wealth were to pass away on the way to or from the proceedings, but in most cases a new will is drawn up leaving said people out and since the last will and testement is the final word of the deceased it is usually honored in a court of law making the pre nup useless. So unless someone doesn't get a new will drawn up and dies on his/her way home from the divorce proceedings I don't see where a pre nup would really be of good use in this scenario.
If someone with wealth is that concerned that the person they are marrying or their children would get that ugly with them upon divorce then maybe they shouldn't be marrying that person. I really have a hard time thinking of such behavior as Christian, but then again many people call themselves Christian but when it comes to money get squrrely. I just don't get it so I just leave this up to God to sort out. Life is to short to get ugly over money IMHO and believe me I understand a lot. Having been a stay at home mom for a number of years not holding down a traditional job where I am paying into social security or a 401K when my husband passed away I don't know how I would pay the bills. He had no savings or 401K or health insurance and he surely did not pay me for all I did while I was a stay at home mom where I could tuck that money away some where for a rainy day. But because my husband made good money while he was alive social security has helped make ends meet. Not covered all expences but it is more than what I thought I would get. No amount of money can replace him. When there is a divorce the stay at home spouce experiences many of the same concerns which is why we have child support and alamony and welfare which were intended to allow the stay at home spouce to continue to care for the children until the children came of age where they should be self sufficiant. But, some where along the line things got messed up and some people exploited the loop holes in the system for their own greed and lazyness and many just refused to pay what was their responability to cover. As divorce has increased along with expendable income unfortunately wealthy people and celebrities have made pre nups look good to the average person who has worked hard for their money and heard horror stories about spouces who just don't stop taking their x to court for more and more not always because they wanted the money either. Some times it has just been to make the other persons life miserable. To see a wealthy celebrity limit their losses or prevent a spouce from repeatedly taking them to court for more has fed into the mentality of he who has the most toys when he passes away wins the race. Who wins here, the deceased? He/she can't take it with them. They most likely didn't enjoy it while they were here on earth, and did they bless those around them with all that they were blessed with during their life time? Pre nups don't show this and most people don't find this out even upon their passing as they don't have a personal relationship with the celebrity. Life is not about the Quantity of things we accumulate in this life but how we spent what we were given. So out of fear or mistrust pre nups are being given serious consideration. But, fear and mistrust are not of God they are a tool of the enemy and they leave a door wide open in our lives for the enemy to feed on that fear and mistrust any time he feels like playing with you and if you get serious about your walk with God he will surely attack you full force in this area to keep you from being an effective Christian and Witness for God. So I ask you, is this really a good reason for considering a pre nup? For insurance or security sake?
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ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
For 2 young persons starting out with nothing-- what's the point? Now if there is lopsided wealth that obviously can bring "temptation" into the picture, there is probably some wisdom in talking these things over prior to marriage -and getting them in writing one way or the other -- much depends on the age of the individuals.
There is also very sad, tragic situations where a spouse has been widowed have adult children -- basically each has had a full life prior to a later life second (third, etc) marriage. It simply keeps things simple what's yours is yours -- it has been a common thing for an older person to remarry and die after a short time --and without it, you are simply disregarding all other history. Motivation and goals as the previous poster said.
< Message edited by tz3 -- 7/12/2009 4:58:50 PM >
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/12/2009 9:43:35 PM
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LivingParadox
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Well, as I said in the earlier post, I wasn't really following your thoughts but you quoted me and the post was about my thoughts being worldly thinking how you thought you should be compensated -and it seemed you seemed to be put in a category as being more "biblical". The concept of a spouse, specifically a female, inheriting is a new concept of the past few centuries and if you read anything like "Pride and Prejudice" you'll see a good example detailed out for you.
Now with that said, for most couples with basically the same wealth going into a marriage with no children, no prior commitments a pre-nup is probably NOT necessary and probably kind of overkill. But when there are others to be considered -- namely, the person of the great wealth has children -yes, a pre-nup is probably not a bad idea. Now if the person is young, and the remarrying and there is a likelihood of children or raising children that should definitely play into the conversations that go on. I would think for the person in the marriage for the right reason would be protective of the other's children as well -- unless they really are in it for the money.
All said, talk about finances and get them worked out BEFORE marriage, adapt paperwork as necessary, and be wise about these kinds of issue -- it's these kinds of things unresolved that add tension to family situations, period.
-2 kids starting out -- pre-nup probably not necessarily but in rare cases.
-2 mid-life folks -- that will probably have kids of their own, possibly have children previously....probably wouldn't be a bad idea -with the idea as the family grows the paperwork will include the entire family.
- 2 older folks (retired) that have established families of each own, possibly a family-owned business, etc, have basically lived and built wealth with their families -- HIGHLY ENCOURAGE A PRE-NUP --- you don't know how many horror stories their are out there.
< Message edited by LivingParadox -- 7/12/2009 10:55:52 PM >
_____________________________
Psalms 63
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/12/2009 11:46:53 PM
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tz3
Posts: 410
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I still feel your argument for a pre nup here is based on greed, lack of trust, and fear three things that should not be part of a Christians decision making processes because fear, greed and mistrust are not of God and that is as much biblical truth as I am getting at. This is a Christian site so what do I care what non Christians do. Christians are not supposed to be of the world but in the world. I don't see a pre nup as being responsible only irresponsable. As Christians being in the world not of the world we do things that do not appear logical to non Christians but they work because we are obediant to our creator and don't care what it looks like to an unbelieving world.
As for compensation that is a different point and I am not sure what you are arguing here.
I can't believe you would base your knowledge on western customs on a book such as pride and predudice as being the all encompassing final authority on inheritance law. I am not even going to address this with you!
A Last Will and Testament is all one needs to address this. Most women may not be pros at investing in the stock market unless they have been taught either by a parent, teacher, mentor or spouse along the way but they are not stupid either. Just because we have an XX gene doesn't mean we don't know how to handle money at all and there for it should remain as it has in your opinon for centeries with all the money going to the first born son. Which is out moded in western society. And even this can be addressed in a last will and testement again no reason for a pre nup.
Pre nup is only for people considering divorce before they even get married. Again if they don't trust the person they are marrying why are they getting married to them to begin with? And if your using the argument to provide for children of a previous marriage an inheritence then we are right back to last will and testement not a pre nup. Pre nup is only for those considering divorce before marriage because of fear, distrust or greed. Fear, Distrust and greed are not of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Well, as I said in the earlier post, I wasn't really following your thoughts but you quoted me and the post was about my thoughts being worldly thinking how you thought you should be compensated -and it seemed you seemed to be put in a category as being more "biblical". The concept of a spouse, specifically a female, inheriting is a new concept of the past few centuries and if you read anything like "Pride and Prejudice" you'll see a good example detailed out for you.
Now with that said, for most couples with basically the same wealth going into a marriage with no children, no prior commitments a pre-nup is probably NOT necessary and probably kind of overkill. But when there are others to be considered -- namely, the person of the great wealth has children -yes, a pre-nup is probably not a bad idea. Now if the person is young, and the remarrying and there is a likelihood of children or raising children that should definitely play into the conversations that go on. I would think for the person in the marriage for the right reason would be protective of the other's children as well -- unless they really are in it for the money.
All said, talk about finances and get them worked out BEFORE marriage, adapt paperwork as necessary, and be wise about these kinds of issue -- it's these kinds of things unresolved that add tension to family situations, period.
-2 kids starting out -- pre-nup probably not necessarily but in rare cases.
-2 mid-life folks -- that will probably have kids of their own, possibly have children previously....probably wouldn't be a bad idea -with the idea as the family grows the paperwork will include the entire family.
- 2 older folks (retired) that have established families of each own, possibly a family-owned business, etc, have basically live and built wealth with their families -- HIGHLY ENCOURAGE A PRE-NUP --- you don't know how many horror stories their are out there.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/13/2009 8:40:24 AM
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John_O
Posts: 4239
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ebony101
I am not contributing to nor contesting the gospels that have been written above, I am just presenting my point of view.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kd4hvz
I have no problem with a pre-nup in and of itself. It would depend on the situation and wording.
Pre-nup hmmm ... There's nothing like a little motivation for both parties to make the extra effort to make the marriage work. 
This last line was my the majority of my motivation for the question. Today divorce is way too easy. people leave marriages just like they chnage clothes. They have no concern for the consequences because under the no-fault divorce laws there are no consequences.
kd4hvz brought up car insurance and seatbelts. Am I afraid of getting in an accident? No (and anyone who's seen me drive can attest to this) but I still wear a seatbelt, it would be foolish to not do so. Likewise a pre-nup has nothing to do with fear or greed or mistrust. The bible tells us that a wise man leaves an inheritance to his childrens children. The Girl has certain things that were inherited from her mommy. How could I not protect these things for her?
tz3 and Living Paradox's conversation touched on a few other areas.
1st a will has nothing to do with this discussion. If your spouse gets a wild hair and decides to divorce you you are not allowed to kill them to make the will active. And betting on them dying accidently before the divorce would usually result in you being divorced and losing all the stuff that a pre-nup would have protected.
2nd, one of them brought up the woman who is divorcing her husband for no reason. It's her third divorce!!!! This screams gold-digger to me. Did he not do due diligence in checking her out? Or did she change? A pre-nup gives another layer of security protecting against such things.
And since both parties know exactly how things would work out it strengthens their resolve to make things work.
3rd. If someone cheats it is entirely the fault of the cheated. The wronged spouse didn't force their spouse to have sex with someone else. The cheater CHOSE to commit adultery. There are no extenuating circumstances. It doesn't matter if the cheated on spouse was an abuser or a total jerk or impotent or whatever. The cheted on spouse's sin does not excuse the cheater's sin. (Divorce them for their unbiblical behavior if they won't repent and change, but don't commit adultery against them)
I admit to having a fear of divorced women. While I know that most divorced women here are victims of the divorce more than causes of it there is still a stigma attached to it. There are questions I need to know before becomming serious with any divorced woman. Why did the marriage fail? Who cheated? etc. If there is not a biblically supportable reason for the divorce then in God's eyes they are still married. Then you get people with multiple divorces (M has a couple uncles with 5 divorces each!! Why would anyone take the risk of being number six?). Far too risky for me.
I guess this really comes down to the discussions between the couple.
If my future Mrs John_O requested a pre-nup I don't think I'd have any problem with it at all. I'd expect her to protect her children's inheritance from their father (if that was the case) and anything that makes a marriage harder to get out of only makes it easier to work on.
No fault divorce really messed up this country
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/13/2009 9:15:51 AM
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kd4hvz
Posts: 175
Joined: 11/2/2006
From: Bedford, VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
3rd. If someone cheats it is entirely the fault of the cheated. The wronged spouse didn't force their spouse to have sex with someone else. The cheater CHOSE to commit adultery. There are no extenuating circumstances.
I have never found a dissolved marriage where fault was 50/50, or even close to it. People say that both parties always have fault. That I believe it true, but it is seldom equal fault. In my experience seeing dozens of destroyed marriages it tends to be very lopsided. More like 90/10 or maybe 80/20, but (again, in my experience) never even close to equal.
It only takes one to stop caring about the marriage and destroy it. So matter how much one side tries, they cannot force the other side to try, nor can they prevent the other person from making really stupid choices. So to try to protect oneself from the unknown future is, in and of itself, wise.
Now weather or not a pre-ump is a part of that, perhaps yes, perhaps no. But no matter what, you just can't control another person, and if they decide to destroy their marriage, they can do it no matter what their partner desires. It only takes one to put an end to a healthy marriage.
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-Michael in beautiful Bedford, VA
[http://www.kd4hvz.com/]
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/13/2009 12:10:07 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kd4hvz
Now weather or not a pre-ump is a part of that, perhaps yes, perhaps no. But no matter what, you just can't control another person, and if they decide to destroy their marriage, they can do it no matter what their partner desires. It only takes one to put an end to a healthy marriage.
Thanks kd4hvz! Good points
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-Michael in beautiful Bedford, VA
It's good to see another Bedfordite. I'm from Bedford, IN. As a fellow Bedfordite let me save you a beating from the mods. This thread is in "she says" where the only male allowed to post is the original poster )
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/13/2009 8:11:46 PM
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LivingParadox
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I've accidently done that myself in the "He said" threads ...usually an interesting topic
Pretty much what you guys said, on topic.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/14/2009 2:42:17 PM
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allisonbrett
Posts: 467
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From: A bit north of the Big Chicken
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
Thank you ladies. Lots of good info here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
Pre nup seems to plan on the "if and when you screw up" and I don't see that as Biblical. But then in our society even among Christians divorce is as common.
This is the problem. Among Christians divorce should be unheard of.
quote:
My question with such a pre nup clause is allowing mitigating factors into the adultry claim. IMO it's not fair to always solely blame the cheater the failure of the marriage. There are many times when the other spouse shares some of the responsible for the affair as the one who strayed (various forms of abuse, willful neglect, etc. ). There are very abusive, neglectful spouses that almost push their mate into the arms of another person by their actions or inactions. I know of one very specific couple this applies to.
There is never an excuse for adultery. Never! never! never! never! never!
If there are problems in the marriage then fix those problems. Cheating never fixes the problems. The only thing cheating does is make the cheater solely responsible for the death of the marriage. It may be very six prior to the adultery but the adultery kills it)
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I also have trouble with the pre-nups with time schedules attached. I know of one couple who had a pre-nup bt after 10 years she'd get much more money. He made sure to divorce her just prior to the 10 year anniversary to avoid having to pay her.
Agreed
I never said it was an excuse but understandable. I'm not talking about one party in the marriage who is bored or craving excitment but something much more extreme. There will always be those casual cheater then others who normally never would have ever considering straying but found themselves exceptionally vulnerable due to extreme neglect or abuse.
You are right, there are often very deep problems in the marriage that need addressing but if the abuser refuses then it is understandable if the other falls into temptation. That's not giving it permission or an excuse just an understanding of why they were more vulnerable then they should have been. I'm talking extemes here. I also do no believe that the adultery puts the nails in the coffin necessarily. Sometimes its a wake up call to the deeper problems that exist. I have actually know a couple who said it was the best thing that happened to them. They were forced to face some of the issues in the marriage and work to repair it. They realized they took their marriage and each other for granted and did what they could to repair it. They are still very happily married today.
Pre nups give an excuse of getting out and in some cases staying in.
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Allison
A work in progress so please be patient, God is still working on me. Ouch, it sure is painful!
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/15/2009 2:18:14 PM
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FunBetty
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My fiance had discussed this when we were going through a premarital book. We both agreed that a prenup basically sets one up for a fall. To me a prenup means "just in case", which exhibits a lack of complete trust and commitment.
And John, while I think your prenup in regards to biblical reasons for divorce are honorable, I believe that is something that should be taken in your vow of marriage (promising to be faithful to one another) and not a legal document.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/15/2009 3:24:45 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
And John, while I think your prenup in regards to biblical reasons for divorce are honorable, I believe that is something that should be taken in your vow of marriage (promising to be faithful to one another) and not a legal document.
The problem is that few people respect their vows anymore and when one chooses to abandon their vows society doesn't respect them either.
Lets say I marry a wonderful Godly woman. After a number of years she is stricken with a mental illness (say lesbianism for arguments sake) and decides to divorce me. In addition to losing my wife I lose 1/2 of everything because society does not respect nor defend marriage vows. I have no defense against this and no way to prevent it.
If we could do away with no-fault divorce such a pre-nup would be totally unnecessary.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/15/2009 10:27:55 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
I would have to say Amen to that sister, but I have to give John_O the benefit of the doubt here. He does like to take opposing sides just to stimulate good discussion on here some times. Would this be the case this time John_O? Cause really this thread will never answer for you what you must discuss with whomever you have your eye on. I could see how it could be used for discovery purposes, maybe to make you think about things you had not considered. But some how that doesn't fit with the image I have of you.
Bingo for the most part. I have long been a beliver that the penalties for breaking a marriage are trivial. We have removed any social stigma from adultery and in most cases even reward the adulterer instead of punishing them.
So one day driving to work I was considering contract law. From a social stand point a marriage is a contract. So why couldn't the contract be privately modified to encourage faithfulness and working to make the marriage stronger? The only way to do that is a pre-nup.
So the first question is "is it possible"
Yep.
The second is "what do the ladies generally think about it?"
Here I ran into the very same issue I've seen on many topics. Any thing that even hints of regulation of their behavior is seen as distrustful and controlling. Even if they'd have no intention of ever cheating etc they seem to view it as some chain around their neck. But if it is a topic that would never come up for them anyway, why would it be a problem at all?
If my new wife wanted a document prepared as I described above I'd sign it in a heartbeat. It makes her happy and it will never apply to me anyway as marriage is for life.
Of course this would have to be discussed with whomever the new Mrs O would be. My guess is that she'd see it as no problem as, as FunBetty pointed out, I'd not be interested in someone who saw marriage as anything other than a lifetime commitment. "For better or for worse, in sickness and in health till death do us part "
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/16/2009 12:42:04 AM
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tz3
Posts: 410
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quote:
I have long been a beliver that the penalties for breaking a marriage are trivial. We have removed any social stigma from adultery and in most cases even reward the adulterer instead of punishing them. I agree with this to an extent. I think painting a scarlet letter on people is a bit old school and to extreem because then where do you draw the line? Should we paint a scarlet letter on anyone that has sex outside of marriage? People have moments of weakness and the only way to irradicate this completely is to go back even further to chaparones, or segregation of the sex's, or keeping women out of the work place. I don't think your going to get the genie back in the bottle now that it is out. kwim?
As for the punishment, ya there should be some sort of punishment especially if it results in the death of a marriage but what would that be and who would impliment it? What is done is done and you can't change things, and really by the time the relationship has made it this far what is the point? Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord. The best thing is for the hurt spouse and children to move on with their lives because anything less would be unhealthy for all involved. I would see this more as restitution and protection of the offended party to the point it hurts the ones who committed adultery. Might detur others from thinking about it, might but there is no guarantee. I think education is key here.
quote:
So one day driving to work I was considering contract law. From a social stand point a marriage is a contract. So why couldn't the contract be privately modified to encourage faithfulness and working to make the marriage stronger? The only way to do that is a pre-nup. So the first question is "is it possible"
Yep.
I suppose it could be used as a tool to make sure the other part thinks twice about backing out. I have never seen or heard of one being used this way.
quote:
The second is "what do the ladies generally think about it?"
Here I ran into the very same issue I've seen on many topics. Any thing that even hints of regulation of their behavior is seen as distrustful and controlling. Even if they'd have no intention of ever cheating etc they seem to view it as some chain around their neck. But if it is a topic that would never come up for them anyway, why would it be a problem at all?
I am not sure it is so much distrust or a controll issue as it is a safety issue for women especially since there isn't any case law on the books with a pre nup being used in the mannor in which you are suggesting.
For us such a prenup if not worded properly could back fire on us keeping us in an abusive relationship which is unhealthy for everyone and would put women back decades with all the inroads we have made getting courts to take us seriousely when it comes to rape and abuse. So if you had to lable it; I would label it a healthy fear with a big dose of purdence. Abuse does not always have to be physical either. Women being the weaker vesal; would you really want us to go back to being a man's property? This is not what God intended, but this is exactly what some none christian would attempt given the chance.
As Christian's we are called to be salt and light to the world. That means sticking up for what we believe in even if it goes against the worlds ways of doing things. So, yes I would oppose this with every last breath in order to protect a weaker woman who has lost her voice because of abuse and/or rape.
God said let your yes be yes and your no be no to strengthen it with a vow or oath means there is something wrong. I would not marry someone who wanted a pre nup as I never intend on leaving him so there for a pre nup is not necessary and any of his concerns can be addressed in a last will and testament as far as I am concerned.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/16/2009 12:43:38 AM
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creationtalk
Posts: 382
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I would want a pre-nup, though not necessarily as stringent as that proposed by John_O. Of course, I've been burned pretty bad twice by men who were abusive and cheated on me. I now have a child to protect.
Unlike many, I do not see a prenup as planning for divorce, but a protection in the event that divorce happens. I had a prenup with my last husband...it simply said what each of us had when we married remained ours and would pass to our heirs on our death rather than to the other party and/or his/her heirs. What we gained while married would be split between our heirs. Although legally prenups are not recognized in this state (the courts will still decide everything) they are a legal document of an agreement between the parties and do carry some weight when in court.
A prenup is more like insurance...I don't plan to burn my house down, but I have fire insurance anyway because sometimes things happen.
I have seen many cases where a couple marry, sell the home of one or the other, buy another home, then the spouse that brought nothing into the marriage divorces the other, claiming half the assets.
Since I will not marry unless I expect it to last, it would not bother me to sign a prenup that protects both me, my child, and future spouse...I would not expect it to ever need to take effect. And if he were opposed to a prenup that protected my child, depending on his reasons and the circumstances, it could be a deal breaker for me. If he doesn't plan to ever divorce me, then why should he care about a prenup?
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/16/2009 1:15:34 AM
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tz3
Posts: 410
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I am sorry you have been burned before, but I have seen to many times where attorneys have taken advantage of women here in Dallas milking them for all they have and all they don't have and giving them very bad advice just to prolong things so they can collect more. If anything I don't trust most attorneys. Attorneys are the ones that draw up such documentation with their jargin. Never know what they could put in there that would either be worded wrong or not adiquet enough or could back fire on you at a later date so what's the point. Unless you like throwing your money at attorneys to keep them in business.
I think a good point has been raised and that is this: it is more important for you to be aware of what the laws are in the state you live in. Someone near and dear to me got fed up with her husbands infidelity and could not put up with it any longer and lost hope of him every changing or coming to his sences or being saved. It was blatently obviouse of everyone they worked with also as they both worked at the same place. The guy wasn't even trying to keep his activity a secret anymore. Unfortunately he knew what the score was and had lured them to live in North Carolina. Un beknownst to her North Caroline has a law on their books stating that if a spouse chooses to divorce even if it is the man who commits adultery (not that this has to be the reason for filing the divorce) the women is always at fault and the kids will always be given to the man. She was granted the divorce and the kid was given to the husband, who had run up her credit card bills refused to pay them and she had to pay child support and alamony until the child turned 18 and her visitation rights were almost none exsistant. She could not move out of state if she wanted visitation rights either. The kicker is her son was the only son she would ever have for health reasons. No pre nup in the world would have protected her in this situation. The Law was against her.
This leads me to my last point. I feel it far better to get laws changed on the books and educate people and change peoples oppinion when it comes to penalties for death of a marriage or making people try to work things out via counciling and education over a period of time before a divorce is granted and this would includ the "other man or other woman" having to stay away from both spouses while they work things out and any contact of any sort would be considered contempt of court. I think limits should be legeslated when it comes to how much someone can be awarded in court and perhaps a cap put on the number of times a spouse can go after the offender or in some cases the victim to protect them from using the court system to further abuse the spouse.
< Message edited by tz3 -- 7/16/2009 1:25:54 AM >
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/17/2009 6:45:35 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 288
Joined: 5/3/2005
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That North Carolina thing sounds strange to me. My brother got a divorce in NC and I don't know of anything that said the divorce was his fault (and he was the one that filed).
There are too many good posts to quote so I'll just add my thoughts:
Adultery is only the fault of the cheater not the cheatee, I don't care what the cheatee does to you. I know a woman who was treated like dirt by her husband, complete with him committing adultery and had a man offer himself to her. She turned him down (actually threatened him with a baseball bat) because she had too much respect to act in such a manner.
I would NEVER sign a prenup. If you don't trust me why do you want to marry me? IF we did divorce I wouldn't want all your stuff (when my parents divorced my mom didn't want alimony from my dad and wouldn't have even if he'd been a millionaire). And even if I put it in the prenup that if you cheat on me I get X-amount of money...how would I know you were faithful because you were a Godly man and loved me...and not because you loved your money?
All that said though there have been plenty of cases where I see a marriage about to take place and think "If he/she doesn't get a prenup they're an idiot." Because it's obvious their spouse-to-be is shady.
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/18/2009 1:11:25 AM
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ofa23
Posts: 525
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
For 2 young persons starting out with nothing-- what's the point? Now if there is lopsided wealth that obviously can bring "temptation" into the picture, there is probably some wisdom in talking these things over prior to marriage -and getting them in writing one way or the other -- much depends on the age of the individuals.
There is also very sad, tragic situations where a spouse has been widowed have adult children -- basically each has had a full life prior to a later life second (third, etc) marriage. It simply keeps things simple what's yours is yours -- it has been a common thing for an older person to remarry and die after a short time --and without it, you are simply disregarding all other history. Motivation and goals as the previous poster said.
I completely agree!
_____________________________
In essentials; Unity (The Nicene Creed)
In Non-Essentials; Liberty (Everything Else)
In all things; Charity
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RE: How do you feel about a pre-nup? - 7/18/2009 4:45:55 AM
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reebz
Posts: 1875
Joined: 12/6/2008
From: Indiana
Status: offline
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I'd rather plan for my spouse's death as painful as it would be than the marriage's dissolution due to divorce. That may sound crazy but what I mean is that the thought of a "just in case we part because we can't seem to love each other as Christ called us to despite vowing before the church body and God himself" plan does not sit well with me.
I am not trying to say that losing a spouse through death is any less painful, if anything I'd argue it is probably more - I'm simply saying that is a natural part of life and a necessary thing to plan for when getting married whereas divorce was never meant to be nor is it a natural thing we should plan for.
Now, I am a little lady starting out with nothing (well beyond my debt) so that greatly influences my answer. I definitely agree though with the caveat inherent when people have children or an extreme wealth distribution difference exists.
-reba.
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formerly rebakahblam
<<<<<Look! I found a lego baby!
beyond surrendered
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Since I''m not really following your train of thought but you pulled my comment into a quote I will try to reply. 
to get into it with you about the rights of women and wives in western culture this is not the thread for that discussion. 
I didn't notice that. I shall sheepishly retreat to a corner and refrain from commenting further! (That's not the first time I have done that. Thank you for setting me straight!)
Have some faith in the woman that you will oh-so-carefull choose to spend the rest of your years with.
MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT 
PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS!