RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories more legit than the others around the world?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/26/2009 3:56:53 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Truth and literalism aren't necessarily the same thing. Some readers of Genesis understand the six days of creation to refer to six phases of a process of creation, and some of those phases could have taken millions of years. Others say that the six days of creation were six days of twenty-four hours each. The person who understands the days to be figurative days is not necessarily denying the truth of any part of the Bible. But with this freedom of interpretation, the Bible can be reinterpreted to support almost any philosophical position that's desired.
i'd like to know how creationists here would explain the nephilim. they're supposed to be one of the main reasons the flood happened.
So am I, where are the remains?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/26/2009 8:27:46 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Truth and literalism aren't necessarily the same thing. Some readers of Genesis understand the six days of creation to refer to six phases of a process of creation, and some of those phases could have taken millions of years. Others say that the six days of creation were six days of twenty-four hours each. The person who understands the days to be figurative days is not necessarily denying the truth of any part of the Bible. But with this freedom of interpretation, the Bible can be reinterpreted to support almost any philosophical position that's desired.
i'd like to know how creationists here would explain the nephilim. they're supposed to be one of the main reasons the flood happened.
I'm unaware of any passage of scripture that directly supports that supposition.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/26/2009 3:09:29 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
And that's where the person ended the discussion, and allowed no other inquiry. Not only that, but they were pushing for this view to be apart of kids history text books, and serious academic circles? What would you think about this? What would you think about a movement that promoted this?
I would say any religion that promoted blind faith was pretty ignorant. That's what's so greate about being a Christian!  Our faith is backed by history and science, so its hardly blind. Unlike our Morman friends, every archeological dig to "disprove the Bible" has actually ended up supporting the historicity of it. This has happened so many times, secular archeologists now read the Bible to try and determine where to dig.
Not exactly 100% true
To be sure the Bible has helped archeologist learn about certain civilizations like the Hittites and the Philistines (who were probably connected to the Sea peoples of Egyptian records.) but, the consensus among more than a few archeologist is that the Exodus, easily one of the most important stories of the O.T, is largely a work of fiction.
And there is great disagrement about when the parts that are historical happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#cite_note-articles.latimes.com-4
I've actually done a small report on the dating of Moses' ministry. To be sure, there is very little agreement among egyptologists on this time in history. I'm not sure, Stephen, why you are so willing to dismiss the Bible's history as fiction, especially when it's so easily demonstrable that the world system has a vested interest in storing up weak and phony "evidence" that the Bible is false. I can assure you of one thing, Stephen: pick the story among the competing egyptologists that most closely resembles the Bible's story of history, and you can be assured that it'll be the one that wins out in the competition for evidence.
< Message edited by DanJames -- 11/26/2009 3:17:17 PM >
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/26/2009 6:06:24 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I've actually done a small report on the dating of Moses' ministry. To be sure, there is very little agreement among egyptologists on this time in history. I'm not sure, Stephen, why you are so willing to dismiss the Bible's history as fiction, especially when it's so easily demonstrable that the world system has a vested interest in storing up weak and phony "evidence" that the Bible is false. I can assure you of one thing, Stephen: pick the story among the competing egyptologists that most closely resembles the Bible's story of history, and you can be assured that it'll be the one that wins out in the competition for evidence.
I brought up the analogy of Book of Mormon to demonstrate the idea that people of other faiths also point to their scriptures when their doctrines are challenged by historical evidence (or lack there of.) I was just pointing out the fact that there are some parts of the Old Testament that many archeologist don't buy into. Therefore if you reject the Book of Mormon's validity as a teaching tool for schools/text books etc for lack of evidence, then you'll probably have to do the same thing with something like Noah's flood. I mean just as there is little to no evidence for a pre-Coloumbian Hebrew colony in the Americas, there is little to no evidence of whatever pre-flood culture was around in Noah's day (and the Y.E.C folks I know will say that the global deluge conviniently wiped away the evidence.) Also, I'm sure that many members of the LDS church would also argue that non-Mormons have a vested interest in destroying their worldview, and some do. It still doesn't change the fact that there is a lack of emperical evidence for their claims, or that even LDS scholars can't seem to find the exact location for this place.
And I was going to leave this alone but...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Their god is a god of war and of torture. He is a god that is truly NOT so merciful, if he "commands" (through his prophets and leaders) to "mercilessly destroy the infidels!" Does that sound like a god you'd like to follow? Would you like to be forced to bow to god like that? He's NOT the same as our God!
The Books of Joshua, Judges or either of the Samuels would seem to contradict that claim. In them God instructs his people plenty of times to wipe out the idol worshiping nations of the land of Cannan. To attack Islam for the violent passages in it's holy book and ignore the violent passages in the O.T is logically and ethically problematic.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/26/2009 9:59:25 PM
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schtumpy
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I find it amusing that Retrobyter would ask the question "Would you like to be forced to worship a God like that?"
The consequences of NOT worshipping the Christian God as taught by fundamentalists is eternal damnation is it not?
That implies a certain degree of coercion.....
Love it.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/26/2009 10:09:51 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I've actually done a small report on the dating of Moses' ministry. To be sure, there is very little agreement among egyptologists on this time in history. I'm not sure, Stephen, why you are so willing to dismiss the Bible's history as fiction, especially when it's so easily demonstrable that the world system has a vested interest in storing up weak and phony "evidence" that the Bible is false. I can assure you of one thing, Stephen: pick the story among the competing egyptologists that most closely resembles the Bible's story of history, and you can be assured that it'll be the one that wins out in the competition for evidence.
I brought up the analogy of Book of Mormon to demonstrate the idea that people of other faiths also point to their scriptures when their doctrines are challenged by historical evidence (or lack there of.) I was just pointing out the fact that there are some parts of the Old Testament that many archeologist don't buy into. Therefore if you reject the Book of Mormon's validity as a teaching tool for schools/text books etc for lack of evidence, then you'll probably have to do the same thing with something like Noah's flood. I mean just as there is little to no evidence for a pre-Coloumbian Hebrew colony in the Americas, there is little to no evidence of whatever pre-flood culture was around in Noah's day (and the Y.E.C folks I know will say that the global deluge conviniently wiped away the evidence.) Also, I'm sure that many members of the LDS church would also argue that non-Mormons have a vested interest in destroying their worldview, and some do. It still doesn't change the fact that there is a lack of emperical evidence for their claims, or that even LDS scholars can't seem to find the exact location for this place.
I thought we were talking about the book of Exodus? If it's very unlikely that we'll ever found clearly identifiable pre-flood artifacts, then why would we expect to find evidence for it? There's nothing "convenient" about it, it's just the way it is. We don't find evidence for the book of Mormon because it was all made up.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/27/2009 12:04:45 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I thought we were talking about the book of Exodus? If it's very unlikely that we'll ever found clearly identifiable pre-flood artifacts, then why would we expect to find evidence for it? There's nothing "convenient" about it, it's just the way it is. We don't find evidence for the book of Mormon because it was all made up.
I was using the example of the book of Exodus and a pre-flood culture as examples of things that Biblical literalist accept as historical, but archeologist either reject or have problems with. A Mormon could just as easily say...
"It's very unlikely that we'll ever find clearly identifiable Nephite/Lamenite artifacts. Why would we expect to find evidence for it? There's nothing "convenient" about it, it's just the way it is."
I'm not trying to mock you or anything, I'm just addressing your argument. However, do you see the problem with that kind of thinking? How it deflects any kind of critical, skeptical inquiry? I'm not sure that this kind of system of thought which relies on something that can never be completly logically evaluated, or even scrutenized in some religious circles, belongs in the science classroom. The demand for emperical evidence is the basis of physical science, including archeology. Under no other circumstance would any of us accept someone saying that an entire culture once existed we'll never find evidence for it, but you should still believe it anyway.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/27/2009 12:18:57 AM >
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/27/2009 12:20:42 AM
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StephenJ
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The 6th cartoon picture down in this link pretty much sums up my concerns about the Y.E.C approach to science. Coming to science with a preconceived notion takes away from objectivity.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/what-happened-to-the-dinosaurs
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/27/2009 1:56:11 AM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
I'm unaware of any passage of scripture that directly supports that supposition.
Genesis 6:1-8"
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/27/2009 1:16:17 PM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
I'm unaware of any passage of scripture that directly supports that supposition.
Genesis 6:1-8"
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
I don't see how you get from this passage to the supposition that the Nephilim are one of the main reasons the flood happened.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/28/2009 6:38:41 AM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Genesis 6:1-8"
I don't see how you get from this passage to the supposition that the Nephilim are one of the main reasons the flood happened.
"sons of God" in this case also refers to the Nephelim. they were supposed to be giant offspring of angels who violated God's will and mated with human women. the belief was that people did not just suddenly become wicked; the Nephilim made them more wicked. the placement of "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become" only makes sense if it is connected with the previous verses.
nonbiblical texts like enoch (which i admit should be taken w/ a grain of salt) say that the fallen angels passed on forbidden knowledge to humans, which made them more wicked. according to the enoch legend, God had to bring the flood to wipe the slate clean and get rid of them, the fallen angels, and the super-wicked people.
but my point isn't why the Nephelim existed or if they caused the flood. my point is that we should have found fossil evidence of 9 foot tall human-like creatures.
< Message edited by shakezula -- 11/28/2009 6:47:11 AM >
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/29/2009 4:20:41 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I thought we were talking about the book of Exodus? If it's very unlikely that we'll ever found clearly identifiable pre-flood artifacts, then why would we expect to find evidence for it? There's nothing "convenient" about it, it's just the way it is. We don't find evidence for the book of Mormon because it was all made up.
I was using the example of the book of Exodus and a pre-flood culture as examples of things that Biblical literalist accept as historical, but archeologist either reject or have problems with. A Mormon could just as easily say...
"It's very unlikely that we'll ever find clearly identifiable Nephite/Lamenite artifacts. Why would we expect to find evidence for it? There's nothing "convenient" about it, it's just the way it is."
I'm not trying to mock you or anything, I'm just addressing your argument. However, do you see the problem with that kind of thinking? How it deflects any kind of critical, skeptical inquiry? I'm not sure that this kind of system of thought which relies on something that can never be completly logically evaluated, or even scrutenized in some religious circles, belongs in the science classroom. The demand for emperical evidence is the basis of physical science, including archeology. Under no other circumstance would any of us accept someone saying that an entire culture once existed we'll never find evidence for it, but you should still believe it anyway.
It's hard being a molecular biologist in a room full of people that have questions on geology and archeology. Stephen, we have to think critically about this. A race of people that lived on North America is a far cry from a race of people that lived before a global flood. We would expect to find evidence for the things that occurred in Exodus, and we do. You want to focus on the exodus from Egypt. That's fine, I think that there is a good case that it's historical fact, and have a bit of evidence to back it up. All I can say is this: if what is accepted in modern archeology doesn't line up with the Bible as it is intended to be read, then modern archeology is wrong. And I would predict that the arguments from archeology are like those from biology: imposing but weak, like giant house of cards. From those experts whom I've talked to, and from the small amount of primary research that I've done in the field of Egyptology as it applies to the Exodus, this is exactly the case.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/29/2009 5:31:35 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
All I can say is this: if what is accepted in modern archeology doesn't line up with the Bible as it is intended to be read, then modern archeology is wrong.
But doesn't this mindset limit our ability to really think and critically evaluate? If we're allowed to examine the evidence, but only allowed to come to certain conclusions (that line up with conservative Biblical hermenutics) then it's not true inquiry right?
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 11/29/2009 5:42:12 PM >
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/29/2009 5:47:35 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
All I can say is this: if what is accepted in modern archeology doesn't line up with the Bible as it is intended to be read, then modern archeology is wrong.
But doesn't this mindset limit our ability to really think and critically evaluate? If we're allowed to examine the evidence, but only allowed to come to certain conclusions (that line up with conservative Biblical hermenutics) then it's not true inquiry right?
Were it so easy. In Biology, evidence can be found that ought to lead to any conclusion, but interpreting it as design evidence is anathema. But to answer your question, it is unscientific to go against the evidence when the evidence is suggestive of a certain time-line. I agree. However, we have a document that is unrelentingly reliable. Indeed, time-lines that contradict it are notoriously unreliable. Many people want to call it merely a book of stories fit only for a sunday school class. But where has that gotten us, really? More "surprise findings", and nothing more.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 11/30/2009 9:48:02 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
We would expect to find evidence for the things that occurred in Exodus, and we do. You want to focus on the exodus from Egypt. That's fine, I think that there is a good case that it's historical fact, and have a bit of evidence to back it up. All I can say is this: if what is accepted in modern archeology doesn't line up with the Bible as it is intended to be read, then modern archeology is wrong.
if a global flood took place w/ the violence and force creationists insist on, then we should expect no archaeological evidence to correspond w/ the people who actually lived there.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/1/2009 2:44:17 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
We would expect to find evidence for the things that occurred in Exodus, and we do. You want to focus on the exodus from Egypt. That's fine, I think that there is a good case that it's historical fact, and have a bit of evidence to back it up. All I can say is this: if what is accepted in modern archeology doesn't line up with the Bible as it is intended to be read, then modern archeology is wrong.
if a global flood took place w/ the violence and force creationists insist on, then we should expect no archaeological evidence to correspond w/ the people who actually lived there.
Exactly, even massive natural disasters leave evidence of the people who were their victims.
Are you saying that the destruction God brought during the flood was so complete that he wiped away every trace of this ancient culture, even their memory? Why not get rid of the fossils to?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/20/2009 7:17:18 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
All I can say is this: if what is accepted in modern archeology doesn't line up with the Bible as it is intended to be read, then modern archeology is wrong.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
However, we have a document that is unrelentingly reliable.
Well golly! If you're going to reject anything that doesn't line up with what the Bible says, then you can't help but think the Bible is unrelentingly reliable.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/20/2009 10:20:21 PM
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juliebme
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Clearly.
And it should be the cornerstone text book for science and history.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/20/2009 11:51:38 PM
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EStan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: juliebme
Clearly.
And it should be the cornerstone text book for science and history.
The Bible - while very clearly containing both history and science - is about Christ Jesus, and what He was sent to do. I know your fallacious comment was meant to be sarcastic, but there are those who read these forums who might not understand that.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/21/2009 1:32:08 AM
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juliebme
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Actually, Estan, it appears that many here actually would like biblical references taught in science and history classrooms.
Literally.
Whether my comment was sarcastic or not.
That's the point.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/21/2009 6:47:03 PM
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juliebme
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I know.
It always amazes me that the term "unconditional love" has completely different meanings depending upon whether you're referring to God or man.....
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/21/2009 7:35:43 PM
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Ohioman1972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: brujaq
The Bible I read is about the Son of God , It states that's "these signs shall follow those who believe " I have witnessed and been a part of these very signs and much more through the power of God by the God of the Bible .. This is testimony of Jesus the Christ and Son of God .. This is what makes the Genesis flood true . If you don,t believe it ask a Mormon or a Muslim when you get to hell ..
I've found that since I've started approaching some of these topics with logic and skeptical inquiry I've received a couple of warnings about hellfire and judgement. Interesting.
Stephen... you find it interesting to find warnings about hellfire and judgement on a Christian forum, after expressing your doubts and skepticism about the contents of the bible?
Would you find it interesting to find critics of Rush Limbaugh on moveon.org?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/21/2009 7:41:11 PM
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bolt.
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One of the distinctive features within Genesis and Exodus that points to their source being revelation rather than creaivity of humanity is that the comperable literature of other cultures at that time is rarely self-critical. It tends to make heroes and support them unconditionally, or define things in such a way as it suits a discernable agenda -- that sort of thing.
In contrast, the Hebrew documents are remarkably fickle towards heroes, and the 'agenda' of the teaching naratives isn't to the advantage of anybody who might have been involved with authorship. The only way they make sense from a "Who's trying to prove what?" stand-point is if it is the God being discribed that is trying to prove something, to teach something, to discribe something. That adds weight to the perspective of them being revealed rather than created, because of this theocentric style of conceptualization.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/21/2009 9:27:11 PM
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drmark
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quote:
It always amazes me that the term "unconditional love" has completely different meanings depending upon whether you're referring to God or man..... It always amazes me that agno-atheists don't realize Christians warn them of hell precisely because of unconditional love!
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 12/21/2009 9:57:39 PM
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juliebme
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Ah, but there's the paradox.
A human parent who has unconditional love would never contemplate - let alone create - a place like he for those to whom that love was bestowed.
Now God, being all powerful etc and having dominion over everything, us included, can do whatever He wants with any of us.
But to call that "love" certainly doesn't match the definition as we apply it to each other.
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