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RE: 2012 - 2/6/2010 11:35:58 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2383
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
What I am about to put forth is a question. I am not stating anything as truth. I just happened to have a though and wanted others to chime in regarding whether or not there is any Biblical truth to it or not.
Supposedly in 1963 the Vatican conducted a Black Mass in which they basically enthroned Lucifer over the church.
SOURCE (just Google any combination of "Lucifer Vatican 1963" and you will get pages and pages)
Well, I don't know what made me think of this... but I was thinking, "Could there be any chance the last week of Daniel's prophecy could end up being 49 years?" 7x7=49. If that were the case then each day of that week would have to be seven years. So I added 49 years to 1963 and it comes out to 2012. Interesting.
Greetings,
According to their own prophecy, whether or not it had anything to do with 1963,
Whatever that may be is according to their own prophecy; I believe…. the next Pope has something to do with some kind of a fulfillment
However, the times between 1961, 1926 to 1969 were very interesting… indeed.
quote:
Well, I don't know what made me think of this... but I was thinking, "Could there be any chance the last week of Daniel's prophecy could end up being 49 years?" 7x7=49.
If one want to see what the pagans are up to... then use the pattern of the Jubilee Year Cycle which is is 49 whereby the 50 represents the space between the beginning of the next count
.....If so.... the one seven would represent a 7 year period of time, with the 1 year as the base of the fulfillments before the count begins again AT 0 to 7 TO= another 7
Therefore 8 to 14 will = two sevens
So if any thing ....your count from 1963 would be one year too many,
If we used the Jubilee Year Cycle pattern for the count
.....like for example beginning in 1962 to 1969 would be one 7, with one year between 1969 and 1970 to represent the 50
So when that year 1969 and 1970 or the 50 is fulfilled....See how that first count begins again AT 0 with the next year of 1970 after the last year 1969
Then... 1970 to 1977 (not 1969)....would be two sevens
Therefore according to the pagan agendas there should have been some very interesting things that were fulfilled between 1962 to 1969
And the "same exact pattern" ...continues...
The pattern using the Jubilee Year Cycle would look like this
Beginning with the
Space from 1961 to 1962 = 1 year
Begin 1962 to 1969 = 1 Seven
Space 1969 to 1970 = year
Begin 1970 to 1977 = 2 Sevens
Space 1977 to 1978 = 1 Year
Begin 1978 to 1985 = 3 Sevens
Space 1985 to 1986 = 1year
Begin 1986 to 1993 = 4 Sevens
Space 1993 to 1994 = 1 year
Begin 1994 to 2001 = 5 Sevens ME
Space 2001 to 2002 = 1 year
Begin 2002 to 2009 = 6 Sevens
Space 2009 to 2010 = 1 Year
Begin 2007 to 2014 = 7 Sevens
Now don't take my word for it...
But
Go and take a peek and read about the going on’s during the years where the space is mentioned in the above counts
Ill give the first 2 as a starter
1961 to 1962
March 21 - The Beatles perform at the Cavern Club for the first time
1962 the group consisted of John Lennon (rhythm guitar, vocals), Paul McCartney (bass guitar, vocals), George Harrison (lead guitar, vocals) and Ringo Starr (drums, vocals). Rooted in skiffle and 1950s rock and roll, the group later worked in many genres ranging from folk rock to psychedelic pop, often incorporating classical and other elements in innovative ways. The nature of their enormous popularity, which first emerged as the "Beatlemania" fad, transformed as their songwriting grew in sophistication. The group came to be perceived as the embodiment of progressive ideals, seeing their influence extend into the social and cultural revolutions of the 1960s.
http://heartofwisdom.com/blog/when-prayer-was-taken-out-of-school/
1969 to 1970
Reported as being the year the first strain of the AIDS virus (HIV) migrated to the United States via Haiti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969
January 30 – The Beatles give their last public performance
Its becomes quite amazing over time using various sources but the prophecy of these things are seen in some of the examples in book of Daniel with the emphasis on the years
1961 to 1962 = 1 year
Begin 1962 to 1969 = the 1st Seven
Dan 3:7
So at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the horn, flute, harp, [and] lyre, (= 4) in “symphony with all kinds of music”, all the people, nations, and languages fell down [and] worshiped the gold image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
quote:
So I added 49 years to 1963 and it comes out to 2012 May be closer to 2014… but who’s counting? 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: 2012 - 2/7/2010 12:02:41 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Travis and you, too, LoyalGypsy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
What I am about to put forth is a question. I am not stating anything as truth. I just happened to have a though and wanted others to chime in regarding whether or not there is any Biblical truth to it or not.
Supposedly in 1963 the Vatican conducted a Black Mass in which they basically enthroned Lucifer over the church.
SOURCE (just Google any combination of "Lucifer Vatican 1963" and you will get pages and pages)
Well, I don't know what made me think of this... but I was thinking, "Could there be any chance the last week of Daniel's prophecy could end up being 49 years?" 7x7=49. If that were the case then each day of that week would have to be seven years. So I added 49 years to 1963 and it comes out to 2012. Interesting.
But I am not sure that there is any biblical justification for that conclusion (I don't think there is). Like I said above, I'm not claiming this as truth in any way. It's just a passing thought and wanted to bring it to discussion. I thought maybe that those here who "know" prophecy (they have it all graphed out and charted and know what Jesus is going to do, when how and why, etc.) could add some light tot he discussion.
It's best not to throw your own calculations into the mix. These are just ... well ... WAY out there!
Travis, no. No. There is no chance that the last "seven" of Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy could end up being 49 years. If he could write out "shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim" for "sixty and two sevens" (62 x 7 years = 434 years) and has already written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" (7 x 7 years = 49 years) once, he could certainly have written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" again, if that's what he intended. Furthermore, there is no significance in the Bible for the year 1963 A.D.!
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...? That's REALLY out there!
Both of these theories are problematic at best, and they amount to "private interpretations."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: 2012 - 2/7/2010 12:12:30 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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3cappuccinosmom,
quote:
I wish people could learn to differ with the doctrines of the Catholic church without throwing in this kind of stuff.
IMO, there is ample Biblical basis to dispute Catholic doctrine (as much as I love my Catholic family) without making up ridiculous stories about them. Stories like that are a very poor premise for setting a date for the end of the world. So, with that said, and combined with my distaste for complicated numerology and making up equations to get numbers that fit our predetermined biases...I'd say, no. Probably not.
I'm with Euty on this one. Moreover, although I'd love to see Jesus return again in my lifetime, I think it's entirely possible that my great-granchildren could look back and chuckle at the 2012 thing like we look back at the gazillions of previous "It's the end of the wooooorld" prophecies and date settings that happen at least once a decade, all the way back to the time of Christ.
First of all, if you are speaking about me, I did not make up this story. The story comes from a man who was an actual Jesuit priest, so is one of the Catholics' own. And second, whether he is lying or telling the truth, I don't know, but I think it is foolish to assume he is lying without something disqualifying him as telling the truth. Josh McDowell quotes John W. Montgomery, in his book More Than a Carpenter, who says "One must listen to the claims of the document under analysis, and not assume fraud or error unless the author disqualified himself by contradictions or known factual inaccuracies." Makes sense to me... But if you are denying the wickedness that goes on in the upper echelons of the Vatican, then you are denying thousands of very provable, very documented sources.
I am not setting a date for anything. I just thought it was interesting that, if this story is true (who are you to say that it isn't?), 49 years later would come out to 2012. That's all.
But I do thank you for your opinion, even though that is all it is... an opinion. Jesus bless you.
Edited for clarification: I just wanted to clarify that I quoted Montgomery above in relation to what was claimed to have happened inside the Vatican in 1963. It is not referring to the 2012 part of the post. The 2012 connection was just a random thought intended to add discussion.
< Message edited by tsnody2001 -- 2/7/2010 12:29:34 AM >
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: 2012 - 2/7/2010 12:24:12 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 1019
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
What I am about to put forth is a question. I am not stating anything as truth. I just happened to have a though and wanted others to chime in regarding whether or not there is any Biblical truth to it or not. ... But I am not sure that there is any biblical justification for that conclusion (I don't think there is). Like I said above, I'm not claiming this as truth in any way.
This was a passing thought!. It is not my theory or whatever else you want to call it. I do not believe it is true one bit. If you will refer to my post #5 and what was said the the previous post or two, I think you will understand that I am not claiming anything or setting any dates. This is the "2012" thread and I thought I would add some discussion to it. That's all.
< Message edited by tsnody2001 -- 2/7/2010 12:37:06 AM >
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: 2012 - 2/8/2010 12:44:33 AM
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JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
Joined: 2/1/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: applemom
There have been many end time programs on recently involving the Mayan calendar that apparently ends in Dec 2012.
Some of these involve Nostradamus and his 'lost' prophecies, some talk alot about a certain alignment of the planets.
Anyway, just wondering if anyone else has noticed and has a theory about why the calendar would end at that date?
Probably the ancient astronomer / mathematician (thought to be a pagan form of magic in those days) either died and took his secrets how to do this with him or the people were overrun by factions or tribes... the calendar simply stops. It may be that 2010 was so far in the future to them it was ridiculous to proceed further. BTW it does not say 2010 (that's a gregorian calendar reference). It calculates out to 2010 most believe... but remember most dispute the accuracy of records keeping etc over the millennia... the gregorian calendar based on the birth of Christ is at least 3 years off... and that's after a major correction in the 1700's...
2010 may already be behind us for all we know by 3 years or more.
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RE: 2012 - 2/9/2010 12:24:46 PM
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Obadyah
Posts: 433
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: online
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This 2012 thing is much like the year 2000 when the power around the world was suppose to disappear and every computer known to man was going to become a monster and kill us all!
No I'm being facetious, the date 2012 combine with the Nostradamus thing will not be the end of the world. That's right you've heard it here 1st!
I'm sure the smarter people here will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Mayan's use to have these rituals annually to see if the gods would show mercy to them and allow them to live into another year. In exchange for this living increase, and I'm not refering to your pay roll living increase. They would have to make sacrifices all year long hoping that it would be enough on lets say December 31. Long story short the stress of such a thing made them push this back a few years until the people got so much heart ache over it that it was pushed to the year 2012.
When it comes to Nostradamus I've read most of that gibberish and you have to be hard pressed to make this guy a truth teller. Nonetheless, I for one believe he may have been possed by a few demons in his day that would try to make certain distructive things happen in the time of man. Of course I'd be taking this conversation somewhere else with that kind of talk. To keep this short Nostradamus isn't as accurate as one would like to believe. If you read some of his quatrains they're pretty difficult to get through. But then again I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack.
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RE: 2012 - 2/24/2010 10:28:15 AM
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Coffee_Drinker
Posts: 230
Joined: 5/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: applemom
There have been many end time programs on recently involving the Mayan calendar that apparently ends in Dec 2012.
Some of these involve Nostradamus and his 'lost' prophecies, some talk alot about a certain alignment of the planets.
Anyway, just wondering if anyone else has noticed and has a theory about why the calendar would end at that date?
Yeah... I think the Mayans chisel broke. Maybe it was the hammer.
I think the Devil (father of lies) has his claws deep into this one. What better way to keep the focus off of Christ and on the world?
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RE: 2012 - 3/5/2010 1:07:01 AM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 323
Joined: 6/6/2008
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Isaac Newton studying Daniel and Revelation, mostly predicted 2060. To his credit he predicted somewhere around 1944 for the birth of Israel. Matthew Henry using Ezek. 37 predicted the rebirth of Israel in 1706 which is 242 years before 1948. All this when talk of Israel as a nation coming together was considered preposterous. Since we live in a mathematically illiterate culture and much of scripture involves numbers. 1 Kings 7:23 provides the value of pi rounded out to three. (Learned that in the Science thread). I did not know about Isaac Newton until tonite so will continue to research. Anyone can google Newton and bible prophecy and do their own homework. Since i don't come here much maybe it has been covered before?
Daniel 12:10 ''....none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.''
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RE: 2012 - 3/6/2010 3:31:50 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2383
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Travis and you, too, LoyalGypsy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
What I am about to put forth is a question. I am not stating anything as truth. I just happened to have a though and wanted others to chime in regarding whether or not there is any Biblical truth to it or not.
Supposedly in 1963 the Vatican conducted a Black Mass in which they basically enthroned Lucifer over the church.
SOURCE (just Google any combination of "Lucifer Vatican 1963" and you will get pages and pages)
Well, I don't know what made me think of this... but I was thinking, "Could there be any chance the last week of Daniel's prophecy could end up being 49 years?" 7x7=49. If that were the case then each day of that week would have to be seven years. So I added 49 years to 1963 and it comes out to 2012. Interesting.
But I am not sure that there is any biblical justification for that conclusion (I don't think there is). Like I said above, I'm not claiming this as truth in any way. It's just a passing thought and wanted to bring it to discussion. I thought maybe that those here who "know" prophecy (they have it all graphed out and charted and know what Jesus is going to do, when how and why, etc.) could add some light tot he discussion.
It's best not to throw your own calculations into the mix. These are just ... well ... WAY out there!
Travis, no. No. There is no chance that the last "seven" of Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy could end up being 49 years. If he could write out "shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim" for "sixty and two sevens" (62 x 7 years = 434 years) and has already written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" (7 x 7 years = 49 years) once, he could certainly have written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" again, if that's what he intended. Furthermore, there is no significance in the Bible for the year 1963 A.D.!
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...? That's REALLY out there!
Both of these theories are problematic at best, and they amount to "private interpretations."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Greetings
Like I mentioned, Post #: 19
2012 has no biblical significance, that is unless the pagans do the will of the Lord, the second coming is based on what they do… not what we do.
….Well…We know they won’t do the will of the Lord…. and we already have been told how it ends.
You know the principal concerning the Jubilee correct? ...
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Think of the opposite “result” as receiving another other than Christ as being in bondage…. rather than being released = him ye will receive
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! 
…..Its 2 fold,
First I am a firm believer
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things ,
And the second is to keep those things in line with the patterns given to us according to the scriptures....
But generally the numbers are a lot of work and study; many just don’t seem to have the time and is why I generally only ask once in a while about these things.
quote:
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...?
It was just an example
All I offered was just an example to see if perhaps it would enlighten the conservation and tweak some thinking…
(I didn’t want to give away all the goodies at once)… so to speak!!
…..The count actually has to be consisted with the beginning where Genesis expresses the Hebrew understandings of the year zero, so the count actually begins with 0
BUT,
I can’t go back to correct it now …but,
The Space from 1961 to 1962 = would still be 1 year…. but would be zero
Begin 1962 to 1969 = 0 Sevens… and so on…
So to correct it the pattern here would be to Begin 2007 to 2014 = 6 Sevens
It’s amazing when using this pattern how all the relative numbers in the pattern of including the spaces….. are all of the 7… but the beginning and the end numbers are all consistent being 8 apart from one another
Rev 17:11
The beast that was, and is not, ……is himself also the “eighth”, and is “of” the seven,
And… “is going”… to perdition.
I can’t go back and correct it right now, but by using that pattern ….it seems the beginning the 70th week could be in the year after 2014
quote:
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...? That's REALLY out there!
SO….Its not really 1-7-1-7-1-7-1, there are actually 3 patterns that can be seen
8
2
1
quote:
Both of these theories are problematic at best, and they amount to "private interpretations.”
Actually I cannot post my private interpretation without scaring the heck out the community; so only a part of it was offered; just to show that 2012 may be off a couple of years (perhaps even as much as 4 years) off
was actually going to bring what I heard to the table (in not so much detail) in the
Daniel 9_24:27 Prophecy or History thread
After
Post #: 11
…..To show Islam’s part in that end time scenario ….but didn’t have the chance
quote:
It's best not to throw your own calculations into the mix. These are just ... well ... WAY out there!
Travis, no. No. There is no chance that the last "seven" of Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy could end up being 49 years.
Perhaps he was comparing the 49 = 7x70 weeks in the likeness of the consummation
Where the consummation “of all things” or the sum= 49
(Depending on ones interpretation)and as suggested in the scriptures
…..the 70 weeks are not a consecutive period of time.
Whereas….. the consummation of “all things” as suggested in the end time scenario; means the 70 week will reiterate in a consecutive period of time… without a gap; = where the “all things” .would be a true consummation… “= An accumulation= Luk 21:32
…..the purpose of laying that generation laying those foundations… being given to a reprobate mind ….will lead directly into the 70th week ;
Whereby the first 42 years, or from 1962 to 2004… represent this generation that is making these preparations Rom 1:28, or (are those laying the foundations)… (Like in the example offered of the sevens)
……is for the purpose to lead into the 70th week = the true consummation… “of all things.”
= An accumulation of all things = from the beginning of creation Luk 21:32
Perhaps someday if you’re nice... .
...Ill show how to calc the tithe in like manner;
For a simple example....
When we the 100% that God gives to us…. and we give back to Him the 10%.... where He therefore blesses the remaining 90%
This translates into, that if the 10% was given with a true heart … then the blessing attributed to that 90% that remains…… reiterates or “increases” SOME>>>30, 60, or 100 fold,
For the sake of a simple example... the math goes like this …
Let’s say we make $100.00 and give God $10.00
If he blesses the 90 with a 30 fold increase it is 27+90 = 117
If he blesses the 90 with a 60 fold increase it is 54+90 = 144
If he blesses the 90 with a 100 fold increase it is 90+90 = 180
that simple pattern is also reiterated into years...
BUT this count using this pattern… (as opposed to the pattern of the sevens, where the sevens give us “a beginning” of an event,)
This pattern of the Tithe here…. marks “the end of” an event,
……It’s almost like a type of Biblical error checking… so to speak!!
BUT…. Whether or not 2014 marks 1 year before the beginning of tribulation.... is yet to be seen
…..But so far “the pagan rendition” of 2012 by design… seems a bit off.
So as they, mentioned in Luk 21:32 as =(this generation)…..as they are setting up for their own deception (by being off a few years)…. I believe that during this time as God is relenting) we will soon be be hearing these prideful words in reflection ….
….."Where is the promise of His coming?
For since the fathers fell asleep,
>>>“all things” >>>(by the examples the worlds system is setting up deliberately to their own deception) …. Continue as they were… (the same ol)
…. from the beginning of creation."
= tempting the Lord.
So if they are deliberately setting up the time tables for their agenda based on 2012, then many shall soon see this principal come to pass …..And because they are reiterating prematurely, it is For the same ole purpose… to tempt the Lord
…. And because their calculations are premature, in their pride they will say….NOW….(when all is coming to pass)
"Where is the promise of His coming= tempting the Lord
BUT the Bible says….. That those, or they…
Mat 24:39 and “did ……..(WILL) not know until” the flood came (COMES) (THE REAL ONE)…. and took (TAKES) them all away,
So also will …..
The coming of the Son of Man be.
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 3/6/2010 11:16:27 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: 2012 - 3/6/2010 10:46:36 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 932
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
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There can be 'No' Zero anything, as zero only locates a decimal place, and precludes an Integer number from filling that space, in cipher.
There is no such thing as a 'zero year,' nor a zero anything, that has an integer value. Rationalizing to a standard, of any dimension, still precludes zero from being anything other than a decimal place holder/anchor. God's Hebrew states well, where Western cypher distorts, by using portions of any base reference of chronology (using months, as a portion of a year, when seeking an answer in 'years').
Noah did not start the 40 days and nights of rain with zero, only with the day one of the count,,,,,etc.
I remember, too well, how easy it was to make an error in the 'zero-decimal' department, when using a slide-rule, where all I really had to do was track the zero marker for the decimal location, and reading a 'close' approximation of the Integer numerals.
LJ, you use the example of numerals 2007 'to' 2014. There cannot be a 'zero-seven,' unless you address the 'seven' preceding the 'active, referenced' seven, which starts in 2007, somewhere. Further alluding to an ending date as: 'to 2014,' connotes, loosely, that on the anniversary date of the beginning, in 2014, plus or minus, the object happening will be concluded. Since you didn't use 'through', but used 'to,' one can only conclude that you reference a time period of 'seven' years, not less, not more. Zero, only, has a 'point' of being, and without reference being made as to how long zero is, one can then only presume that the zero being referenced is but an 'instant' in the framework of the time counted, as requiring active attention. (It is truly difficult describing a factor of non value.) In your referenced time I feel you may err, if I have read your words correctly.
I agree with you, that the Gregorian year of 2012 has no Prophetic, Biblical, notation, however counted, but as, IMO, 2012 may well be a part of what we call the 'Tribulation Seven,' I find it difficult to state, without probability of error, the year 2012 does not have anything to do with the Tribulation period, until, of course, the Tribulation Seven does not commence until at least seven years after 2012. And with that 'Ka-ging, ricochet, I shut my fingers up, and go back to reading the wisdom of other fingers, not mine. Ha 
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: 2012 - 3/13/2010 11:12:52 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, LoyalGypsy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Travis and you, too, LoyalGypsy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
What I am about to put forth is a question. I am not stating anything as truth. I just happened to have a though and wanted others to chime in regarding whether or not there is any Biblical truth to it or not.
Supposedly in 1963 the Vatican conducted a Black Mass in which they basically enthroned Lucifer over the church.
SOURCE (just Google any combination of "Lucifer Vatican 1963" and you will get pages and pages)
Well, I don't know what made me think of this... but I was thinking, "Could there be any chance the last week of Daniel's prophecy could end up being 49 years?" 7x7=49. If that were the case then each day of that week would have to be seven years. So I added 49 years to 1963 and it comes out to 2012. Interesting.
But I am not sure that there is any biblical justification for that conclusion (I don't think there is). Like I said above, I'm not claiming this as truth in any way. It's just a passing thought and wanted to bring it to discussion. I thought maybe that those here who "know" prophecy (they have it all graphed out and charted and know what Jesus is going to do, when how and why, etc.) could add some light tot he discussion.
It's best not to throw your own calculations into the mix. These are just ... well ... WAY out there!
Travis, no. No. There is no chance that the last "seven" of Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy could end up being 49 years. If he could write out "shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim" for "sixty and two sevens" (62 x 7 years = 434 years) and has already written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" (7 x 7 years = 49 years) once, he could certainly have written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" again, if that's what he intended. Furthermore, there is no significance in the Bible for the year 1963 A.D.!
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...? That's REALLY out there!
Both of these theories are problematic at best, and they amount to "private interpretations."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Greetings
Like I mentioned, Post #: 19
2012 has no biblical significance, that is unless the pagans do the will of the Lord, the second coming is based on what they do… not what we do.
….Well…We know they won’t do the will of the Lord…. and we already have been told how it ends.
You know the principal concerning the Jubilee correct? ...
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Think of the opposite “result” as receiving another other than Christ as being in bondage…. rather than being released = him ye will receive
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?!
…..Its 2 fold,
First I am a firm believer
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things ,
And the second is to keep those things in line with the patterns given to us according to the scriptures....
But generally the numbers are a lot of work and study; many just don’t seem to have the time and is why I generally only ask once in a while about these things.
quote:
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...?
It was just an example
All I offered was just an example to see if perhaps it would enlighten the conservation and tweak some thinking…
(I didn’t want to give away all the goodies at once)… so to speak!!
…..The count actually has to be consisted with the beginning where Genesis expresses the Hebrew understandings of the year zero, so the count actually begins with 0
BUT,
I can’t go back to correct it now …but,
The Space from 1961 to 1962 = would still be 1 year…. but would be zero
Begin 1962 to 1969 = 0 Sevens… and so on…
So to correct it the pattern here would be to Begin 2007 to 2014 = 6 Sevens
It’s amazing when using this pattern how all the relative numbers in the pattern of including the spaces….. are all of the 7… but the beginning and the end numbers are all consistent being 8 apart from one another
Rev 17:11
The beast that was, and is not, ……is himself also the “eighth”, and is “of” the seven,
And… “is going”… to perdition.
I can’t go back and correct it right now, but by using that pattern ….it seems the beginning the 70th week could be in the year after 2014
quote:
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...? That's REALLY out there!
SO….Its not really 1-7-1-7-1-7-1, there are actually 3 patterns that can be seen
8
2
1
quote:
Both of these theories are problematic at best, and they amount to "private interpretations.”
Actually I cannot post my private interpretation without scaring the heck out the community; so only a part of it was offered; just to show that 2012 may be off a couple of years (perhaps even as much as 4 years) off
was actually going to bring what I heard to the table (in not so much detail) in the
Daniel 9_24:27 Prophecy or History thread
After
Post #: 11
…..To show Islam’s part in that end time scenario ….but didn’t have the chance
quote:
It's best not to throw your own calculations into the mix. These are just ... well ... WAY out there!
Travis, no. No. There is no chance that the last "seven" of Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy could end up being 49 years.
Perhaps he was comparing the 49 = 7x70 weeks in the likeness of the consummation
Where the consummation “of all things” or the sum= 49
(Depending on ones interpretation)and as suggested in the scriptures
…..the 70 weeks are not a consecutive period of time.
Whereas….. the consummation of “all things” as suggested in the end time scenario; means the 70 week will reiterate in a consecutive period of time… without a gap; = where the “all things” .would be a true consummation… “= An accumulation= Luk 21:32
…..the purpose of laying that generation laying those foundations… being given to a reprobate mind ….will lead directly into the 70th week ;
Whereby the first 42 years, or from 1962 to 2004… represent this generation that is making these preparations Rom 1:28, or (are those laying the foundations)… (Like in the example offered of the sevens)
……is for the purpose to lead into the 70th week = the true consummation… “of all things.”
= An accumulation of all things = from the beginning of creation Luk 21:32
Perhaps someday if you’re nice... .
...Ill show how to calc the tithe in like manner;
For a simple example....
When we the 100% that God gives to us…. and we give back to Him the 10%.... where He therefore blesses the remaining 90%
This translates into, that if the 10% was given with a true heart … then the blessing attributed to that 90% that remains…… reiterates or “increases” SOME>>>30, 60, or 100 fold,
For the sake of a simple example... the math goes like this …
Let’s say we make $100.00 and give God $10.00
If he blesses the 90 with a 30 fold increase it is 27+90 = 117
If he blesses the 90 with a 60 fold increase it is 54+90 = 144
If he blesses the 90 with a 100 fold increase it is 90+90 = 180
that simple pattern is also reiterated into years...
BUT this count using this pattern… (as opposed to the pattern of the sevens, where the sevens give us “a beginning” of an event,)
This pattern of the Tithe here…. marks “the end of” an event,
……It’s almost like a type of Biblical error checking… so to speak!!
BUT…. Whether or not 2014 marks 1 year before the beginning of tribulation.... is yet to be seen
…..But so far “the pagan rendition” of 2012 by design… seems a bit off.
So as they, mentioned in Luk 21:32 as =(this generation)…..as they are setting up for their own deception (by being off a few years)…. I believe that during this time as God is relenting) we will soon be be hearing these prideful words in reflection ….
….."Where is the promise of His coming?
For since the fathers fell asleep,
>>>“all things” >>>(by the examples the worlds system is setting up deliberately to their own deception) …. Continue as they were… (the same ol)
…. from the beginning of creation."
= tempting the Lord.
So if they are deliberately setting up the time tables for their agenda based on 2012, then many shall soon see this principal come to pass …..And because they are reiterating prematurely, it is For the same ole purpose… to tempt the Lord
…. And because their calculations are premature, in their pride they will say….NOW….(when all is coming to pass)
"Where is the promise of His coming= tempting the Lord
BUT the Bible says….. That those, or they…
Mat 24:39 and “did ……..(WILL) not know until” the flood came (COMES) (THE REAL ONE)…. and took (TAKES) them all away,
So also will …..
The coming of the Son of Man be.
LG
May I share with you how the Yoveel (Jubilee) worked?
First, there was a shabbat year every seventh year: Thus, it was 6 years of regular farming in which the sixth year would produce twice as much food. Then on the seventh year, they were to let the ground lie fallow. They were to let the ground rest on the seventh year and eat from the produce of the sixth year. Seven of these sabbatical years would pass and then the Year of Yoveel would come. It was a SECOND sabbatical year during that seven-year cycle increasing it to an eighth year. Thus, it was a fiftieth year. So, the only pattern you should have seen from the sabbatical years is as follows:
1-6 = plant and harvest as usual
7 = leave the land alone (6th year will supply enough for 7th year, too)
8-13 = plant and harvest as usual
14 = leave the land alone (13th year will supply enough for 14th year, too)
15-20 = plant and harvest as usual
21 = leave the land alone (20th year will supply enough for 21st year, too)
22-27 = plant and harvest as usual
28 = leave the land alone (27th year will supply enough for 28th year, too)
29-34 = plant and harvest as usual
35 = leave the land alone (34th year will supply enough for 35th year, too)
36-41 = plant and harvest as usual
42 = leave the land alone (41st year will supply enough for 42nd year, too)
43-48 = plant and harvest as usual
49 = leave the land alone (48th year will supply enough for 49th year, too)
50 = Yoveel! leave the land alone (48th year will supply enough for 50th year, too)
Now, as far as "30 fold," "60 fold," and "100 fold," those are NOT representative of PERCENTAGES! It's not "30% of a value"; it's 30 TIMES the value! Remember: we're talking about a farming community. One germinated seed of wheat will grow a plant stalk, each with a head of grain containing SEVERAL seeds! Sometimes, the head would only contain 30 seeds, sometimes the head would contain 60 seeds, but once in a while a particularly productive plant might have a head containing 100 seeds! THIS is what Yeshua` was talking about in His parable. However, at NO TIME does Yeshua` say that this applies to years! One just can't take any old number in Scripture and use it for whatever is on his or her mind! That is NOT good hermeneutics!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: 2012 - 3/15/2010 10:06:29 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2383
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, LoyalGypsy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Travis and you, too, LoyalGypsy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
What I am about to put forth is a question. I am not stating anything as truth. I just happened to have a though and wanted others to chime in regarding whether or not there is any Biblical truth to it or not.
Supposedly in 1963 the Vatican conducted a Black Mass in which they basically enthroned Lucifer over the church.
SOURCE (just Google any combination of "Lucifer Vatican 1963" and you will get pages and pages)
Well, I don't know what made me think of this... but I was thinking, "Could there be any chance the last week of Daniel's prophecy could end up being 49 years?" 7x7=49. If that were the case then each day of that week would have to be seven years. So I added 49 years to 1963 and it comes out to 2012. Interesting.
But I am not sure that there is any biblical justification for that conclusion (I don't think there is). Like I said above, I'm not claiming this as truth in any way. It's just a passing thought and wanted to bring it to discussion. I thought maybe that those here who "know" prophecy (they have it all graphed out and charted and know what Jesus is going to do, when how and why, etc.) could add some light tot he discussion.
It's best not to throw your own calculations into the mix. These are just ... well ... WAY out there!
Travis, no. No. There is no chance that the last "seven" of Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy could end up being 49 years. If he could write out "shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim" for "sixty and two sevens" (62 x 7 years = 434 years) and has already written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" (7 x 7 years = 49 years) once, he could certainly have written "shaavu`iym shiv`aah" for "seven sevens" again, if that's what he intended. Furthermore, there is no significance in the Bible for the year 1963 A.D.!
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...? That's REALLY out there!
Both of these theories are problematic at best, and they amount to "private interpretations."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Greetings
Like I mentioned, Post #: 19
2012 has no biblical significance, that is unless the pagans do the will of the Lord, the second coming is based on what they do… not what we do.
….Well…We know they won’t do the will of the Lord…. and we already have been told how it ends.
You know the principal concerning the Jubilee correct? ...
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Think of the opposite “result” as receiving another other than Christ as being in bondage…. rather than being released = him ye will receive
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?!
…..Its 2 fold,
First I am a firm believer
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things ,
And the second is to keep those things in line with the patterns given to us according to the scriptures....
But generally the numbers are a lot of work and study; many just don’t seem to have the time and is why I generally only ask once in a while about these things.
quote:
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...?
It was just an example
All I offered was just an example to see if perhaps it would enlighten the conservation and tweak some thinking…
(I didn’t want to give away all the goodies at once)… so to speak!!
…..The count actually has to be consisted with the beginning where Genesis expresses the Hebrew understandings of the year zero, so the count actually begins with 0
BUT,
I can’t go back to correct it now …but,
The Space from 1961 to 1962 = would still be 1 year…. but would be zero
Begin 1962 to 1969 = 0 Sevens… and so on…
So to correct it the pattern here would be to Begin 2007 to 2014 = 6 Sevens
It’s amazing when using this pattern how all the relative numbers in the pattern of including the spaces….. are all of the 7… but the beginning and the end numbers are all consistent being 8 apart from one another
Rev 17:11
The beast that was, and is not, ……is himself also the “eighth”, and is “of” the seven,
And… “is going”… to perdition.
I can’t go back and correct it right now, but by using that pattern ….it seems the beginning the 70th week could be in the year after 2014
quote:
Loyal Gypsy, what in the world are YOU doing?! What's up with 1-7-1-7-1-7-1-...? That's REALLY out there!
SO….Its not really 1-7-1-7-1-7-1, there are actually 3 patterns that can be seen
8
2
1
quote:
Both of these theories are problematic at best, and they amount to "private interpretations.”
Actually I cannot post my private interpretation without scaring the heck out the community; so only a part of it was offered; just to show that 2012 may be off a couple of years (perhaps even as much as 4 years) off
was actually going to bring what I heard to the table (in not so much detail) in the
Daniel 9_24:27 Prophecy or History thread
After
Post #: 11
…..To show Islam’s part in that end time scenario ….but didn’t have the chance
quote:
It's best not to throw your own calculations into the mix. These are just ... well ... WAY out there!
Travis, no. No. There is no chance that the last "seven" of Dani'el's record of Gavri'el's prophecy could end up being 49 years.
Perhaps he was comparing the 49 = 7x70 weeks in the likeness of the consummation
Where the consummation “of all things” or the sum= 49
(Depending on ones interpretation)and as suggested in the scriptures
…..the 70 weeks are not a consecutive period of time.
Whereas….. the consummation of “all things” as suggested in the end time scenario; means the 70 week will reiterate in a consecutive period of time… without a gap; = where the “all things” .would be a true consummation… “= An accumulation= Luk 21:32
…..the purpose of laying that generation laying those foundations… being given to a reprobate mind ….will lead directly into the 70th week ;
Whereby the first 42 years, or from 1962 to 2004… represent this generation that is making these preparations Rom 1:28, or (are those laying the foundations)… (Like in the example offered of the sevens)
……is for the purpose to lead into the 70th week = the true consummation… “of all things.”
= An accumulation of all things = from the beginning of creation Luk 21:32
Perhaps someday if you’re nice... .
...Ill show how to calc the tithe in like manner;
For a simple example....
When we the 100% that God gives to us…. and we give back to Him the 10%.... where He therefore blesses the remaining 90%
This translates into, that if the 10% was given with a true heart … then the blessing attributed to that 90% that remains…… reiterates or “increases” SOME>>>30, 60, or 100 fold,
For the sake of a simple example... the math goes like this …
Let’s say we make $100.00 and give God $10.00
If he blesses the 90 with a 30 fold increase it is 27+90 = 117
If he blesses the 90 with a 60 fold increase it is 54+90 = 144
If he blesses the 90 with a 100 fold increase it is 90+90 = 180
that simple pattern is also reiterated into years...
BUT this count using this pattern… (as opposed to the pattern of the sevens, where the sevens give us “a beginning” of an event,)
This pattern of the Tithe here…. marks “the end of” an event,
……It’s almost like a type of Biblical error checking… so to speak!!
BUT…. Whether or not 2014 marks 1 year before the beginning of tribulation.... is yet to be seen
…..But so far “the pagan rendition” of 2012 by design… seems a bit off.
So as they, mentioned in Luk 21:32 as =(this generation)…..as they are setting up for their own deception (by being off a few years)…. I believe that during this time as God is relenting) we will soon be be hearing these prideful words in reflection ….
….."Where is the promise of His coming?
For since the fathers fell asleep,
>>>“all things” >>>(by the examples the worlds system is setting up deliberately to their own deception) …. Continue as they were… (the same ol)
…. from the beginning of creation."
= tempting the Lord.
So if they are deliberately setting up the time tables for their agenda based on 2012, then many shall soon see this principal come to pass …..And because they are reiterating prematurely, it is For the same ole purpose… to tempt the Lord
…. And because their calculations are premature, in their pride they will say….NOW….(when all is coming to pass)
"Where is the promise of His coming= tempting the Lord
BUT the Bible says….. That those, or they…
Mat 24:39 and “did ……..(WILL) not know until” the flood came (COMES) (THE REAL ONE)…. and took (TAKES) them all away,
So also will …..
The coming of the Son of Man be.
LG
May I share with you how the Yoveel (Jubilee) worked?
First, there was a shabbat year every seventh year: Thus, it was 6 years of regular farming in which the sixth year would produce twice as much food. Then on the seventh year, they were to let the ground lie fallow. They were to let the ground rest on the seventh year and eat from the produce of the sixth year. Seven of these sabbatical years would pass and then the Year of Yoveel would come. It was a SECOND sabbatical year during that seven-year cycle increasing it to an eighth year. Thus, it was a fiftieth year. So, the only pattern you should have seen from the sabbatical years is as follows:
1-6 = plant and harvest as usual
7 = leave the land alone (6th year will supply enough for 7th year, too)
8-13 = plant and harvest as usual
14 = leave the land alone (13th year will supply enough for 14th year, too)
15-20 = plant and harvest as usual
21 = leave the land alone (20th year will supply enough for 21st year, too)
22-27 = plant and harvest as usual
28 = leave the land alone (27th year will supply enough for 28th year, too)
29-34 = plant and harvest as usual
35 = leave the land alone (34th year will supply enough for 35th year, too)
36-41 = plant and harvest as usual
42 = leave the land alone (41st year will supply enough for 42nd year, too)
43-48 = plant and harvest as usual
49 = leave the land alone (48th year will supply enough for 49th year, too)
50 = Yoveel! leave the land alone (48th year will supply enough for 50th year, too)
Now, as far as "30 fold," "60 fold," and "100 fold," those are NOT representative of PERCENTAGES! It's not "30% of a value"; it's 30 TIMES the value! Remember: we're talking about a farming community. One germinated seed of wheat will grow a plant stalk, each with a head of grain containing SEVERAL seeds! Sometimes, the head would only contain 30 seeds, sometimes the head would contain 60 seeds, but once in a while a particularly productive plant might have a head containing 100 seeds! THIS is what Yeshua` was talking about in His parable. However, at NO TIME does Yeshua` say that this applies to years! One just can't take any old number in Scripture and use it for whatever is on his or her mind! That is NOT good hermeneutics!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Greetings Rob
Thanks for that info on the Jubilee…
quote:
Now, as far as "30 fold," "60 fold," and "100 fold," those are NOT representative of PERCENTAGES! It's not "30% of a value"; it's 30 TIMES the value!
That is why I gave a simple example
quote:
For the sake of a simple example... the math goes like this …
Let’s say we make $100.00 and give God $10.00
If he blesses the 90 with a 30 fold increase it is 27+90 = 117
If he blesses the 90 with a 60 fold increase it is 54+90 = 144
If he blesses the 90 with a 100 fold increase it is 90+90 = 180
The 2 principals that we have to work with,
However …here is how I look at the principals
1 is the tithe…
And the other is the offering,
Offerings do not seem to be based or measured back in percentages yet could be given back in a TIMES the value, as you mentioned above,
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: ( a value according to whatsoever the judgment is… we are judged in like manner)
And with what measure …ye mete, (GIVE)
It (Whatever the amount, or whatsoever that thing is) shall be…. measured (given) to you… “ “again.”=measured back in like manner)
So the principal of an offering represents more of a TIMES the value, as you mentioned
2Ti 2:6
The husbandman that laboureth must be “first partaker” of the fruits.
1Cr 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those [who are] Christ's (=still the first fruits) …at… “ His coming”.= “Therefore He will be the first partaker” (in the Harvest) = the rapture
However here is how I look at this principal
The tithe is a percentage base… and in like manner God will not bless the remaining amount and give back “a times value” when a percentage was first “given”, ……that right there seems is a bit contrary to His nature … (the word of God)
Therefore if we “give” a percentage, that part we give is Gods…
.....(God blesses, or measures back) the remaining, in like manner = in a percentage
Either way we sever the Lord by understanding and doing those things
BUT
The fold increases in principal…. apply to anything… as long as they are measured by the same thing
For example..
If one was to pray for wisdom, God is not going to give one… someone else’s wisdom,
The wisdom that will be given is according to (or measured according) with ones gifting,
Therefore, depending on what ground I use that wisdom given, dictates the fold of that wisdom I receive
quote:
Remember: we're talking about a farming community. One germinated seed of wheat will grow a plant stalk, each with a head of grain containing SEVERAL seeds! Sometimes, the head would only contain 30 seeds, sometimes the head would contain 60 seeds, but once in a while a particularly productive plant might have a head containing 100 seeds! THIS is what Yeshua` was talking about in His parable.
Very interesting… I never knew that…
And I agree
But… there is one discrepancy
… It’s not the plant that dictates the fold… it’s the ground
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good “ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold
quote:
One just can't take any old number in Scripture and use it for whatever is on his or her mind! That is NOT good hermeneutics!
I agree, and just as in parable, the principal Yeshua was revealing... works with anything, as long as it is based in good ground…. and that why I use the Bible (principals,) to base number studies on
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 3/15/2010 1:56:26 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: 2012 - 3/15/2010 12:41:48 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 932
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
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OOps, I got off track and had to withdraw my stupidity..
Please concider this bump in the road as a easy to miss bump.
In Messiah. Arley
The page is now supposed to be blank, from this point on, like my brain, at times.
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: 2012 - 3/19/2010 12:18:51 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 763
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Greetings Rob
Thanks for that info on the Jubilee…
quote:
Now, as far as "30 fold," "60 fold," and "100 fold," those are NOT representative of PERCENTAGES! It's not "30% of a value"; it's 30 TIMES the value!
That is why I gave a simple example
quote:
For the sake of a simple example... the math goes like this …
Let’s say we make $100.00 and give God $10.00
If he blesses the 90 with a 30 fold increase it is 27+90 = 117
If he blesses the 90 with a 60 fold increase it is 54+90 = 144
If he blesses the 90 with a 100 fold increase it is 90+90 = 180
You ignored what I said. 30% of 90 is 27 (30% x 90 = 0.3 x 90 = 27), but that is NOT "30 fold!" "30 fold" of 90 is 2700! (30 x 90 = 2700)
60% of 90 is 54 (60% x 90 = 0.6 x 90 = 54); "60 fold" of 90 is 5400! (60 x 90 = 5400)
100% of 90 is 90, but "100 fold" of 90 is 9000!
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
The 2 principals that we have to work with,
However …here is how I look at the principals
1 is the tithe…
And the other is the offering,
Offerings do not seem to be based or measured back in percentages yet could be given back in a TIMES the value, as you mentioned above,
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: ( a value according to whatsoever the judgment is… we are judged in like manner)
And with what measure …ye mete, (GIVE)
It (Whatever the amount, or whatsoever that thing is) shall be…. measured (given) to you… “ “again.”=measured back in like manner)
So the principal of an offering represents more of a TIMES the value, as you mentioned
2Ti 2:6
The husbandman that laboureth must be “first partaker” of the fruits.
1Cr 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those [who are] Christ's (=still the first fruits) …at… “ His coming”.= “Therefore He will be the first partaker” (in the Harvest) = the rapture
This is NOT the purpose of I Corinthians 15! This is the RESURRECTION chapter! Yeshua` the Messiah has already been the Firstfruits! This was fulfilled when Yeshua` was raised back to life 3 days and 3 nights after His death. The phrase "afterward those who are Christ's at His coming" refers to the SECOND resurrection; the resurrection of the Justified. (Paul also mentions a third resurrection after the Millennium for the Great White Throne Judgment:
1 Cor 15:24-28
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV)
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
However here is how I look at this principal
The tithe is a percentage base… and in like manner God will not bless the remaining amount and give back “a times value” when a percentage was first “given”, ……that right there seems is a bit contrary to His nature … (the word of God)
Therefore if we “give” a percentage, that part we give is Gods…
.....(God blesses, or measures back) the remaining, in like manner = in a percentage
Either way we sever the Lord by understanding and doing those things
(I assume you meant "serve" instead of "sever?") No, while the tithe is a percentage base, what you're suggesting is a percentage of the remaining percentage! (e.g., 30% x 90%) That's not right! That calculation has NO Scriptural basis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
BUT
The fold increases in principal…. apply to anything… as long as they are measured by the same thing
For example..
If one was to pray for wisdom, God is not going to give one… someone else’s wisdom,
The wisdom that will be given is according to (or measured according) with ones gifting,
Therefore, depending on what ground I use that wisdom given, dictates the fold of that wisdom I receive
quote:
Remember: we're talking about a farming community. One germinated seed of wheat will grow a plant stalk, each with a head of grain containing SEVERAL seeds! Sometimes, the head would only contain 30 seeds, sometimes the head would contain 60 seeds, but once in a while a particularly productive plant might have a head containing 100 seeds! THIS is what Yeshua` was talking about in His parable.
Very interesting… I never knew that…
And I agree
But… there is one discrepancy
… It’s not the plant that dictates the fold… it’s the ground
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good “ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold
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One just can't take any old number in Scripture and use it for whatever is on his or her mind! That is NOT good hermeneutics!
I agree, and just as in parable, the principal Yeshua was revealing... works with anything, as long as it is based in good ground…. and that why I use the Bible (principals,) to base number studies on
LG
Good ground is not enough; it is the work of God to make the plants grow! It depends on where the Sower throws the seed!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: 2012 - 3/19/2010 8:09:05 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2383
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Greetings Rob
Thanks for that info on the Jubilee…
quote:
Now, as far as "30 fold," "60 fold," and "100 fold," those are NOT representative of PERCENTAGES! It's not "30% of a value"; it's 30 TIMES the value!
That is why I gave a simple example
quote:
For the sake of a simple example... the math goes like this …
Let’s say we make $100.00 and give God $10.00
If he blesses the 90 with a 30 fold increase it is 27+90 = 117
If he blesses the 90 with a 60 fold increase it is 54+90 = 144
If he blesses the 90 with a 100 fold increase it is 90+90 = 180
You ignored what I said. 30% of 90 is 27 (30% x 90 = 0.3 x 90 = 27), but that is NOT "30 fold!" "30 fold" of 90 is 2700! (30 x 90 = 2700)
60% of 90 is 54 (60% x 90 = 0.6 x 90 = 54); "60 fold" of 90 is 5400! (60 x 90 = 5400)
100% of 90 is 90, but "100 fold" of 90 is 9000!
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
The 2 principals that we have to work with,
However …here is how I look at the principals
1 is the tithe…
And the other is the offering,
Offerings do not seem to be based or measured back in percentages yet could be given back in a TIMES the value, as you mentioned above,
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: ( a value according to whatsoever the judgment is… we are judged in like manner)
And with what measure …ye mete, (GIVE)
It (Whatever the amount, or whatsoever that thing is) shall be…. measured (given) to you… “ “again.”=measured back in like manner)
So the principal of an offering represents more of a TIMES the value, as you mentioned
2Ti 2:6
The husbandman that laboureth must be “first partaker” of the fruits.
1Cr 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those [who are] Christ's (=still the first fruits) …at… “ His coming”.= “Therefore He will be the first partaker” (in the Harvest) = the rapture
This is NOT the purpose of I Corinthians 15! This is the RESURRECTION chapter! Yeshua` the Messiah has already been the Firstfruits! This was fulfilled when Yeshua` was raised back to life 3 days and 3 nights after His death. The phrase "afterward those who are Christ's at His coming" refers to the SECOND resurrection; the resurrection of the Justified. (Paul also mentions a third resurrection after the Millennium for the Great White Throne Judgment:
1 Cor 15:24-28
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV)
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
However here is how I look at this principal
The tithe is a percentage base… and in like manner God will not bless the remaining amount and give back “a times value” when a percentage was first “given”, ……that right there seems is a bit contrary to His nature … (the word of God)
Therefore if we “give” a percentage, that part we give is Gods…
.....(God blesses, or measures back) the remaining, in like manner = in a percentage
Either way we sever the Lord by understanding and doing those things
(I assume you meant "serve" instead of "sever?") No, while the tithe is a percentage base, what you're suggesting is a percentage of the remaining percentage! (e.g., 30% x 90%) That's not right! That calculation has NO Scriptural basis.
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
BUT
The fold increases in principal…. apply to anything… as long as they are measured by the same thing
For example..
If one was to pray for wisdom, God is not going to give one… someone else’s wisdom,
The wisdom that will be given is according to (or measured according) with ones gifting,
Therefore, depending on what ground I use that wisdom given, dictates the fold of that wisdom I receive
quote:
Remember: we're talking about a farming community. One germinated seed of wheat will grow a plant stalk, each with a head of grain containing SEVERAL seeds! Sometimes, the head would only contain 30 seeds, sometimes the head would contain 60 seeds, but once in a while a particularly productive plant might have a head containing 100 seeds! THIS is what Yeshua` was talking about in His parable.
Very interesting… I never knew that…
And I agree
But… there is one discrepancy
… It’s not the plant that dictates the fold… it’s the ground
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good “ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold
quote:
One just can't take any old number in Scripture and use it for whatever is on his or her mind! That is NOT good hermeneutics!
I agree, and just as in parable, the principal Yeshua was revealing... works with anything, as long as it is based in good ground…. and thats why I use the Bible (principals,) to base number studies on
LG
Good ground is not enough; it is the work of God to make the plants grow! It depends on where the Sower throws the seed!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
quote:
Good ground is not enough
Sorry to hear that….
Ill stand… on what was given...
quote:
You ignored what I said.
I admit it....Not all but, Most of the time…
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: 2012 - 3/19/2010 10:24:23 PM
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SuspenseWriter
Posts: 473
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: offline
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Y'know, I'm not the dumbest guy in the world, but all these numbers mean what exactly? State your position, and then tell us what the numbers mean to support that position. Otherwise it's simply figures on a page.
_____________________________
John Robinson
writer of suspense
Heading Home (Sheaf House Publishers, August 2010), The Radiance (August 2011), and Relentless (August 2012, both through Narrow Road Press)
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/blo
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RE: 2012 - 3/20/2010 5:01:24 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2383
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Y'know, I'm not the dumbest guy in the world, but all these numbers mean what exactly? State your position, and then tell us what the numbers mean to support that position. Otherwise it's simply figures on a page.
I’ll explain it to ya…
From what I’ve seen a bit twisted thus far.... it warrants at least an explanation
(But I will NOT show one the patterns or the connections between the OT and the NT (or the JOINS)…..
So don’t ask…..)
But I can offer this much
Some foundation…
There are 2 parts to the scriptures, or Gods word… in context with enumeration
There is enumeration based …“BEFORE” Christ
And
There is enumeration based …“AFTER” Christ
We will look at the first = Before Christ
The first ….is Torah…. And Torah, is the word, and the word speaks of Christ (John 1)
The enumeration based …“BEFORE” Christ is Gematria
Therefore a rule applies… (That many do not seem to grasp)
…..And this rule is …that THE Equating of ….anything “prophetic”…. that is written in the OT scriptures by the prophets who had spoken things that will occur “AFTER Christ’s fulfillments” (including Jesus Himself)…. is “away from” the rules of (Torah)…. and is not recommended
,….. Because the enumeration based AFTER Christ…. is by revealed truth
THEREFORE!!!
Numeration of the OT Text is now subdivided into parts (1Cr 13:9 ….)
And here is that basic structure… >New Testament is Old Testament revealed< It’s very simple
…..the New is revealing “hidden things” from the OLD = and is now subdivided…. into parts (1Cr 13:9)
And is only used to equate anything by Gematria …. “Prophetically “… “AFTER Christ
And the reason why that is, is because Torah is the base, or the law… the order… in which things are done = (the rules) and the same rules applies After Christ,
… and that means…. ; either in the NT or the OT;… the same rule applies.
Therefore to equate anything…. “Prophetic “… “AFTER Christ by Gematria one has to keep to the rule.
The system in Gematria in the NT or After Christdiffers in the sense that it is now subdivide into parts; it is still based on the Torah rules of enumeration, in Gematria
but “the only text” that can be enumerated in the OT are the texts defined by revealed truth,
(Which means the “HS” has to illuminate IT)
(Think of revealed truth in the context of parts (1Cr 13:9)… as a type of shortcut to a “certain” OT Text,
….. (Just like a shortcut on a PC Desktop)
ONCE that OT truth is revealed… those words, verses or passages adhere to Torah rules …and the ONLY text to be enumerated by The system in Gematria (By the rules) is the OT Text…. Before Christ!! = Torah
Therefore ….We …NEVER.. EVER… enumerate “NT Text” in such a fashion, (Unless prompted)
Because it would be like 2 objects trying to occupy the same named space, whereby we would receive an error; or a false (prophetic)reading in the Gematria … …..Or in simple PC language = ….a BSOD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Screen_of_Death
Here is how the prompting of a NT text works using (mentioned above) works in Gematria
…………Once “a truth is revealed”, that text is enumerated, and once enumerated it will point to its fulfillment in the NT…. Therefore that text in the fulfillment…. is the “only” NT Text that can be used with the Gematria, because all three of these “joins” are bound to the rules.
And the fulfillment by Jesus is most likely is somewhere else in the NT scriptures, away from the first truth, that was revealed (mention above)
I’ll leave the discussion… with this…
The 2 basic differences between the enumeration of the OT…. and the NT Texts by revealed truth….
And one is that in OT or by the Torah ….the time of their visitation (1st advent) “was made known” to them,
Therefore in the “context of numbers” … that not knowing in turn produced a rebuke by Jesus here below in Luke 19:44…. And Because Torah was clearly given to them… for them “not knowing” …the time…. of their visitation…. Was no excuse
Jer 10:15, Luke 19:44
AGAIN In the context of numbers or by an enumeration of text…… the NT Text now cleans up the OT Text by revealed truth; therefore making it in, parts (1Cr 13:9)…
Therefore…….the “only thing” we are “not given to know” prophetically (as opposed to the Children of Israel to have known their time)….. Is the time of the (2nd Advent) … and that is just a simple a result of the division!!! ….Which will be corrected in its own time!
But we are given the rest to know
… Especially that which the OT prophets prophesied of concerning those things AFTER Christ, however…. in the context of the Gematria…. there are few who find it.(THAT)
Which is why I will not offer how to do it, because it is based on revealed truth, and mine is not necessarily the same as someone else’s, therefore it would a total waste of time, its not something that is taught by a scholar! … its given only to a few… who can find it.
Looking at this verse “for the purpose” of instruction… concerning enumeration…
Mat 7:14 …..Narrow [is] the gate (=That Gate is Narrow) and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, (therefore…..)
( because the knowledge is in part those things concerning enumeration by Gematria of the OT text does not save a person)BECAUSE) …. There are few who find it.
….Which basically means… that if we were to witness to and engage a bunch of MATH scholars, the majority may not even have a clue) because it is still subject to illumination
In the context of the Gematria rules in the NT and how it is to BE applied to an OT text… even though it does not save a person… and even under illumination of the HS…. there still are few who find it…
….And like I mentioned in a previous post… It takes a lot of time.
However….it definitely reveals a ton of things spoken by the OT prophets concerning this day we live in and are moving towards…..that would most definitely knock the socks off of the common believer, that is… if one whishes to research it out!!
So if one wishes to put to the test those recommendations mentioned above, then just wait for the first illumination (by the HS… not you) generally comes when one is into or reading the word of God)
… then go to the OT text(s) revealed, (wait for at least 3… recommended)
They may not come all at once so write them down first and wait for them.
Then use the Gematria rules to find the number(s), look at those definitions associated with the number(s) and find the fulfillments BY JESUS…in the NT…
Then run the Gematria on the texts in those NT fulfillments
I never tried the Greek Gematria for the NT fulfillments… because of the rules, the Torah is written Hebrew, and therefore the fulfillment should able to be worded in Hebrew very easily.
This is the simplest way to get a likeness of the prophetic word using numbers… so as not to get into trouble!
I am not sure that what is being offered by others… because I can’t find any specific structure to it, and definitely is not abiding by the rules.
Otherwise, when in doubt…..just speak the word of God …and all those things will be “added” unto you (us)… = done automatically!!
>New Testament is Old Testament revealed by illumination which in turn shows us the fulfillment, and is how we know He exists<
…And is the way Gypsy likes it…
Simplified!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: 2012 - 3/22/2010 11:56:14 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9200
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Y'know, I'm not the dumbest guy in the world, but all these numbers mean what exactly? State your position, and then tell us what the numbers mean to support that position. Otherwise it's simply figures on a page.
IMHO, the Holy Spirit was given, in part, to reveal important answers to the redeemed. IMHO, if it requires computers or secret formulas that is no obvious to most believers with human instruction, then it isn't worth wasting energy on because it is bogus silliness. But, OTOH, it keeps some people too busy to get into serious trouble.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: 2012 - 3/22/2010 1:27:39 PM
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Obadyah
Posts: 433
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Y'know, I'm not the dumbest guy in the world, but all these numbers mean what exactly? State your position, and then tell us what the numbers mean to support that position. Otherwise it's simply figures on a page.
IMHO, the Holy Spirit was given, in part, to reveal important answers to the redeemed. IMHO, if it requires computers or secret formulas that is no obvious to most believers with human instruction, then it isn't worth wasting energy on because it is bogus silliness. But, OTOH, it keeps some people too busy to get into serious trouble.
That nearly kills the entire bible if we take that as true. The vary reason why this form stays at an average of 7,000 plus people is because we are all trying to put a puzzle together. Not jumping down on you about your comment. I just thought it was a weird thing to say.
_____________________________
" Live to Live Again"
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RE: 2012 - 3/22/2010 1:49:23 PM
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Abbreviated
Posts: 2266
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Eutychus, I actually agree with you this time! I don't think God shares prophecies with pagans, either.
Balaam was given a prophecy/blessing by God in Numbers.
_____________________________
1959-20__ Who are you living your dash for ?
Jackie
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RE: 2012 - 3/22/2010 1:56:35 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9200
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abbreviated
quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Eutychus, I actually agree with you this time! I don't think God shares prophecies with pagans, either.
Balaam was given a prophecy/blessing by God in Numbers.
Balaam wasn't pagan. Neither was his donkey.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: 2012 - 3/22/2010 2:00:16 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9200
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kushta
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
Y'know, I'm not the dumbest guy in the world, but all these numbers mean what exactly? State your position, and then tell us what the numbers mean to support that position. Otherwise it's simply figures on a page.
IMHO, the Holy Spirit was given, in part, to reveal important answers to the redeemed. IMHO, if it requires computers or secret formulas that is no obvious to most believers with human instruction, then it isn't worth wasting energy on because it is bogus silliness. But, OTOH, it keeps some people too busy to get into serious trouble.
That nearly kills the entire bible if we take that as true. The vary reason why this form stays at an average of 7,000 plus people is because we are all trying to put a puzzle together. Not jumping down on you about your comment. I just thought it was a weird thing to say.
I disagree. The entire Bible is accessible to all believers without a computer or some with a magic decoder ring to teach us. We are now a Kingdom of priests and kings, no longer at the mercy of mystics, seers, or special class of clergy.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: 2012 - 3/22/2010 5:57:48 PM
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SuspenseWriter
Posts: 473
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
I disagree. The entire Bible is accessible to all believers without a computer or some with a magic decoder ring to teach us. We are now a Kingdom of priests and kings, no longer at the mercy of mystics, seers, or special class of clergy.
Quoted for truth. Every time I see one of these threads--here or elsewhere--where it takes a slide rule and a ream of paper to make the poster's case, I remember Jesus telling us that people should come to Him as little children. Now picture a five-year-old trying to puzzle out all these figures and the whole "you'd better understand this, buddy, or you're DOOOOOMED!" rhetoric kinds falls apart.
_____________________________
John Robinson
writer of suspense
Heading Home (Sheaf House Publishers, August 2010), The Radiance (August 2011), and Relentless (August 2012, both through Narrow Road Press)
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/blo
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Stories like that are a very poor premise for setting a date for the end of the world. So, with that said, and combined with my distaste for complicated numerology and making up equations to get numbers that fit our predetermined biases...I'd say, no. Probably not. 
