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The Mystery of Evil - 1/22/2010 2:47:50 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
The Mystery of Evil
R.C. Sproul - Ligonier Ministries
It has been called the Achilles' heel of the Christian faith. Of course, I'm referring to the classical problem of the existence of evil. Philosophers such as John Stuart Mill have argued that the existence of evil demonstrates that God is either not omnipotent or not good and loving — the reasoning being that if evil exists apart from the sovereign power of God, then by resistless logic, God cannot be deemed omnipotent. On the other hand, if God does have the power to prevent evil but fails to do it, then this would reflect upon His character, indicating that He is neither good nor loving. Because of the persistence of this problem, the church has seen countless attempts at what is called theodicy. The term theodicy involves the combining of two Greek words: the word for God, theos, and the word for justification, dikaios. Hence, a theodicy is an attempt to justify God for the existence of evil (as seen, for instance, in John Milton's Paradise Lost). Such theodicies have covered the gauntlet between a simple explanation that evil comes as a direct result of human free will or to more complex philosophical attempts such as that offered by the philosopher Leibniz. In his theodicy, which was satired by Voltaire's Candide, Leibniz distinguished among three types of evil: natural evil, metaphysical evil, and moral evil. In this three-fold schema, Leibniz argued that moral evil is an inevitable and necessary consequence of finitude, which is a metaphysical lack of complete being. Because every creature falls short of infinite being, that shortfall must necessarily yield defects such as we see in moral evil. The problem with this theodicy is that it fails to take into account the biblical ideal of evil. If evil is a metaphysical necessity for creatures, then obviously Adam and Eve had to have been evil before the fall and would have to continue to be evil even after glorification in heaven.
To this date, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what theologians call the mystery of iniquity. Please don't send me letters giving your explanations, usually focusing on some dimension of human free will. I'm afraid that many people fail to feel the serious weight of this burden of explanation. The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil, in as much as we still must ask how a good being would be inclined freely to choose evil. The inclination for the will to act in an immoral manner is already a signal of sin.
Read the rest of The Mystery of Evil
This quote here really spoke to me:
"Evil always and ever serves the ultimate best interest of God Himself."
I don't think we can ever come to an understanding of the existence of evil in the world. What do you think?
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/22/2010 4:11:38 PM
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tt1106
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How is God's Love shown to his creation? Through his Mercy, in that while we were still sinners, he sent his son to die for us.
How did God demonstrate mercy prior to creation? Who was he merciful to?
Yes, the problem of Evil is a complicated one. It gets either easier or more complicated depending on whether you believe that a sovereign God somehow could not prevent evil, thus allowign it to happen.
I, for example, am reconciled to God being good and sovereign. For some purpose God allowed evil to be born and sin to abound. Part of that being, so he could send his Son to die for believers. as for the rest....
I got nothin.
< Message edited by tt1106 -- 1/22/2010 6:15:32 PM >
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/25/2010 1:32:26 AM
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Ganheim
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quote:
The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil,
This is an idea that I'd like to see an answer to - or, more realistically, at least some discussion on. The idea of a nice God like Christians talk about would be great, but this is the reason why I can't accept Christianity.
There's a lot of things that could be said in this discussion, but first can we all agree that evil does exist?
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Writer on Fiction Press, Fan Fiction, Deviant Art.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/25/2010 1:52:53 AM
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MyLastTime
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Of course we can agree that Evil exists. It's littered throughout both the Old and New Testament and is visible in our world.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/25/2010 4:19:24 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
This quote here really spoke to me:
"Evil always and ever serves the ultimate best interest of God Himself."
I don't think we can ever come to an understanding of the existence of evil in the world. What do you think?
Because of Rom.8:28 we believe evil always and ever serves the best interest of God. "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose."
God could have prevented evil. However He chose not to. God felt to create us not as robots, but as humans with the free choice to choose to love, obey, disobey, get angry etc. was worth the risk. So because of our free will we failed and thus we`ve got the Haiti earthquake or the Virgina State murderer. We now live in a fallen world.
 Why God is it so? C.S.Lewis said "God in His omniscience saw that from a world of free creatures, even though they fell, He could work out a deeper happiness and a fuller splendor than any world of automata would admit." So we can conclude that our present world is not the best of all possible worlds, however it is the best way to the best possible world.
In other words God is not finished yet. If God is all good, God will defeat evil. If God is all-powerful, God can do it. (However Frankman  give your head a shake) Evil is still all around us today. Therefore yet future God will and can defeat evil.
One day when Jesus returns to earth evil will be gone forever. Then and only then will true justice prevail as all men will be held accountable before God. So if someone chooses to enter eternity without trusting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior they will understand then just how effectively God will deal with the problem of evil.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/26/2010 1:24:24 AM
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Ezra
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There are quite a few fallacies in Mr. Sproul's statements:
quote:
To this date, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what theologians call the mystery of iniquity.
Nowhere in Scripture has God promised to give us a "satisfying explanation" for the mystery of iniquity. God is not necessarily interested in satisfying our curiosity about matters which are too high for us. We are simply shown the factual existence of evil in this universe and that one day sin and evil will be totally eradicated from this universe. More to the point, God shows us that our only hope of redemption from sin and evil is the Lord Jesus Christ. And that should be of greater concern to all men than a sterlie philosophical explanation of the existence of sin and evil.
quote:
Please don't send me letters giving your explanations, usually focusing on some dimension of human free will. I'm afraid that many people fail to feel the serious weight of this burden of explanation.
What exactly does Sproul mean by this statement? God has not placed on any human being the "serious weight of this burden of explanation". God does not expect man to explain the existence of evil, just as He does not expect man to explain the existence of God. It simply is, just as God simply is. That is why He reveals His personal name as "I AM THAT I AM".
quote:
The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil,
Why not? It is precisely because Lucifer and Adam had the ability to make free moral choices that they chose to sin rather than obey God. Had this freedom been absent, they would only have made good choices, since God is good and perfectly good. Because men are self-conscious they are also self-centered. Therefore it would take an act of the will to obey God and make Him the centre of our existence. Instead Adam deliberately transgressed God's commandment to either please himself or his wife.
quote:
in as much as we still must ask how a good being would be inclined freely to choose evil
Nowhere does Scripture teach that either Lucifer or Adam were "good". Only God is good. These creatures were created sinless, but not necessarily "good" (as was proved subsequently).
quote:
The inclination for the will to act in an immoral manner is already a signal of sin.
Is Sproul teaching that God made His creatures sinful at the time that He created them? That is contrary to Genesis 1:31 which says that "God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was "very good" (or excellent).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/27/2010 2:32:52 AM
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abraxas
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Something I see a lot of, when people are giving their explanation as to why a good and powerful God allows evil, is that He gave "us" the free will to choose, but "we" failed--"we" chose to disobey, and therefore the world became fallen and evil came into the world.
This strikes me as extremely collectivist--as if we all, even before our births, were participating in a "collective consciousness" and all share the responsibility for the fall of God's perfect creation.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/28/2010 12:17:56 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Something I see a lot of, when people are giving their explanation as to why a good and powerful God allows evil, is that He gave "us" the free will to choose, but "we" failed--"we" chose to disobey, and therefore the world became fallen and evil came into the world.
This strikes me as extremely collectivist--as if we all, even before our births, were participating in a "collective consciousness" and all share the responsibility for the fall of God's perfect creation.
Actually Scripture makes it quite clear that it was the first man -- Adam -- who is held responsible for the fallen condition of the human race and the curse upon God's creation. See Genesis 3:9-24, Romans 5:12-21, and 1 Timothy 2:13,14.
At the same time, all human beings are sinners by birth and by choice and all need to come to repentance and salvation (1 Timothy 2:3-6).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 1/29/2010 7:56:01 PM
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gralan
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One of the reasons I believe that we find it extremely hard to digest the fact that Adam was responsible for our condition is that we do not believe that Adam and Eve died spiritually on that day when they partook of the knowledge of good and evil.
Dead people have a corrupting presence that is undeniable and current.
New Creations have a new life in Christ Jesus which, until He returns with our salvation, is forced to coexist in us along with our dead nature. Our old nature is not resurrected, we are a new and living being by faith. This much is very plain from the Scriptures and the Apostles teaching.
Its so easy for us to get caught up in things, that we forget to return to basic presuppositions of the orthodox Christian faith.
It in Adam we all died, so in Christ we shall all live; those who believe God exists and rewards those who seek after God, according to the Truth which is in accordance with godliness.
< Message edited by gralan -- 1/29/2010 8:04:45 PM >
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/8/2010 9:46:35 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 1716
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
This quote here really spoke to me:
"Evil always and ever serves the ultimate best interest of God Himself."
I don't think we can ever come to an understanding of the existence of evil in the world. What do you think?
A number of times in 1 Samuel it says that God sent a spirit upon Saul. That spirit is described as either evil or harmful.
For example:
Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. And Saul's servants said to him. "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you." 1 Samuel 16:14-15
The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raced within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand. And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice. 1 Samuel 18:10-11
I see that as God using evil to accomplish his will.
_____________________________
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. (2 Cor 2:14)
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/14/2010 4:01:26 AM
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wolfvanzandt
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I don't think we can be sure of the correct answer to the presence of evil in the world but I am pretty satisfied that I have a working model that pretty much fits everything I know about the world. This isn't God's final creation. There's a repeated principle in the Bible - the refining of gold. Things are created and they have to be refined. I believe that God knew full well that a universe cannot be created perfect without refining. This isn't God's perfect creation - the next one will be.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/14/2010 7:20:11 AM
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lightbeamrider
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''No where does scripture teach that either Lucifer or Adam were good.''
Genesis 1:31. ''God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.'' Adam in creation was indeed good.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/14/2010 5:15:55 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
''No where does scripture teach that either Lucifer or Adam were good.''
Genesis 1:31. ''God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.'' Adam in creation was indeed good.
The Hebrew word towb can mean many different things, therefore the context determines the meaning. Since God made a perfect creation, He declared it as being "very good".
However, there is another application to "good" which pertains to righteousness. Adam was not righteous when he was created but he was sinless -- he did not know good and evil. Therefore he was only "good" in that sense.
The fact that he disobeyed a very simple and reasonable command reveals that he was not good (righteous) , and therefore today "there is none righteous, no not one".
Only God is "good" in the sense of being perfectly righteous. That is exactly what Christ said. Either He is good because He is God, or He is not "a good Master" (Luke 18:19).
And sinners can only be righteous when God imputes righteousness to them. We are not told in Scripture whether Adam believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. We know, however, that the first righteous person listed in Hebrew 11 is Adam's son Abel (v. 4) -- "he obtained witness that he was righteous". This was imputed righteousness because of his faith.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/16/2010 9:48:10 AM
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JohnD70X7
Posts: 100
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
quote:
The Mystery of Evil
R.C. Sproul - Ligonier Ministries
It has been called the Achilles' heel of the Christian faith. Of course, I'm referring to the classical problem of the existence of evil. Philosophers such as John Stuart Mill have argued that the existence of evil demonstrates that God is either not omnipotent or not good and loving — the reasoning being that if evil exists apart from the sovereign power of God, then by resistless logic, God cannot be deemed omnipotent. On the other hand, if God does have the power to prevent evil but fails to do it, then this would reflect upon His character, indicating that He is neither good nor loving. Because of the persistence of this problem, the church has seen countless attempts at what is called theodicy. The term theodicy involves the combining of two Greek words: the word for God, theos, and the word for justification, dikaios. Hence, a theodicy is an attempt to justify God for the existence of evil (as seen, for instance, in John Milton's Paradise Lost). Such theodicies have covered the gauntlet between a simple explanation that evil comes as a direct result of human free will or to more complex philosophical attempts such as that offered by the philosopher Leibniz. In his theodicy, which was satired by Voltaire's Candide, Leibniz distinguished among three types of evil: natural evil, metaphysical evil, and moral evil. In this three-fold schema, Leibniz argued that moral evil is an inevitable and necessary consequence of finitude, which is a metaphysical lack of complete being. Because every creature falls short of infinite being, that shortfall must necessarily yield defects such as we see in moral evil. The problem with this theodicy is that it fails to take into account the biblical ideal of evil. If evil is a metaphysical necessity for creatures, then obviously Adam and Eve had to have been evil before the fall and would have to continue to be evil even after glorification in heaven.
To this date, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what theologians call the mystery of iniquity. Please don't send me letters giving your explanations, usually focusing on some dimension of human free will. I'm afraid that many people fail to feel the serious weight of this burden of explanation. The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil, in as much as we still must ask how a good being would be inclined freely to choose evil. The inclination for the will to act in an immoral manner is already a signal of sin.
Read the rest of The Mystery of Evil
This quote here really spoke to me:
"Evil always and ever serves the ultimate best interest of God Himself."
I don't think we can ever come to an understanding of the existence of evil in the world. What do you think?
I have so many differences with RC Sproul it's hard to keep focused on this one subject...
The Bible says God created it, but evil is not a direct creation from God. To give a crude and fallible example... we enter a room and turn on a light. Where the light is blocked a shadow forms. We created the shadow by turning on the light, but it was not our intent rather to illuminate the room. The shadow is a byproduct of that which opposed the light source.
God (in order to create beings that had the choice to love and obey him) had to create the option not to love him or obey him. Otherwise we would be like plant life responding to the sun and rain or like robots (mentioned in another thread here). There are two ways / philosophies in the universe and eternity: God's way and not God's way. Evil results from not God's way. It is a byproduct. God only created the capacity for it to exist... and he takes what does exist and uses it to the advantage of all those who love him and to achieve his will ultimately.
God is after all the Great Orchestrator of all things. So it should not be surprising that he makes even the evil men and angels choose to actually and ultimately serve him.
Mysteries like this or the Trinity or why we are here are not so hard to understand when they are viewed from God's perspective (which he tries to share with us in his word). That typically means throwing out our understanding completely and starting over, otherwise we bring along such baggage as "God can't use evil to his or our advantage..." says who? ... or "How can three be one?" three can be a compound one or unity like a family...
There are certain benchmark passages like 1 Corinthians 2 and Matthew 16:17 and Matthew 16:23 that juxtapose human so-called wisdom / understanding with God's... and this is the underlying theme of the entire Bible... having ears to hear and eyes to see... precept upon precept line upon line here a little there a little...
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Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/16/2010 7:33:50 PM
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lightbeamrider
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Adam is declared the son of God in Luke 3:38. As far as Hebrews 11 goes and the list of those who have imputed righteousness; it is by no means a complete list and it is questionable if all listed have imputed righteousness. There is Jephthah who was a great warrior but a lousy father to his only virgin daughter. Seth is not included but scripture indicates there were two lines. They were from Cain (which produced Enoch) and Seth which was the Godly line included in the genealogy of Christ which also includes Adam.
The imputed righteousness of Adam could have been declared in Genesis 1:31. All of creation, including Adam was good. Adam is included in the line of Jesus. We do not know the ultimate fate of Adam but would like to believe both he and Eve are saved. They repented and lived good lives post fall. After all, God is not unreasonable. In post 13, Ezra declares Adam as being sinless but not righteous. To be in right relationship with Creator and sinless is to be righteous. How can one be both sinless and in right relationship with God and not be righteous? Because they lacked a certain ignorance which was obtained after eating of the forbidden fruit? Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. So Adam must have had a few things going for him.
In post 6 Ezra insinuates (Sproul may be teaching) God makes his creatures sinful at the time He created them. Sproul does nothing of the sort as it relates to pre fall creation.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 21:18 The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the treacherous is in the place of the upright.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/17/2010 12:06:53 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
Adam is declared the son of God in Luke 3:38.
One must rightly divide the Word of Truth. Adam is called a "son of God" just as the angels who sinned are called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:2). That simply means that they were direct creations of God, not procreated. It certainly does not mean that they had received the indwelling Holy Spirit. Those "sons of God" sinned grievously, just like Adam.
quote:
As far as Hebrews 11 goes and the list of those who have imputed righteousness; it is by no means a complete list and it is questionable if all listed have imputed righteousness.
While the list may be incomplete (Heb. 11:32 -- "for the time would fail me"), it is by no means "questionable" that those who believed God and trusted in the living God did not receive imputed righteousness. Imputed righteousness is a fundamental doctrine and the basis of receiving this gift is faith -- "Abraham believed God and it was imputed [counted/accounted] to him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3,22).
quote:
There is Jephthah who was a great warrior but a lousy father to his only virgin daughter.
From the human perspective a lousy father, but from God's perspective a man of faith -- otherwise he would not be listed in Heb. 11. Even Samson and Barak are listed there, though from the human perspective we would dismiss them as "flakes".
quote:
The imputed righteousness of Adam could have been declared in Genesis 1:31.
This is good speculation but poor exegesis.
quote:
All of creation, including Adam was good.
And as already explained the Hebrew word towb must be interpreted according to context. It has wide-ranging applications.
quote:
Adam is included in the line of Jesus. We do not know the ultimate fate of Adam but would like to believe both he and Eve are saved.
Fair enough. But the fact remains that Adam was only created "innocent" not righteous. He would have been declared righteous had he believed God and resisted the devil.
quote:
They repented and lived good lives post fall. After all, God is not unreasonable.
Fair enough. But they are excluded from Hebrews 11.
quote:
In post 13, Ezra declares Adam as being sinless but not righteous. To be in right relationship with Creator and sinless is to be righteous.
And therein lies the issue. Had Adam been in a right relationship with God, he would have scoffed at Satan and insisted that his wife have no dialogue with the devil. Furthermore, even had Eve rebelled, Adam would have continued in a right relationship by turning away from disobedience. Thus we may safely conclude that he was created "sinless" and "innocent" but not righteous. Christ showed His righteousness by resisting the devil at every turn.
quote:
How can one be both sinless and in right relationship with God and not be righteous?
Exactly. Therefore the best that can be said of Adam is that he was created innocent -- free from the knowledge of good and evil. Righteousness would have resulted in obedience, just as Christ's righteousness resulted in His absolute obedience to His Father.
quote:
Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. So Adam must have had a few things going for him.
Again we must rightly divide the Word of Truth. To be created in God's image and likeness is to have the capability of communing with God and also having His character. Had Adam continued in obedience to God, he would have been conformed to the image of Christ. But he chose to disobey, and destroyed everything.
quote:
In post 6 Ezra insinuates (Sproul may be teaching) God makes his creatures sinful at the time He created them. Sproul does nothing of the sort as it relates to pre fall creation.
It is Sproul who claimed that Adam was "good" and then said "The inclination for the will to act in an immoral manner is already a signal of sin". That's double-talk. Well, if Adam was good, how come we all are sinners? And if God created Adam with an "inclination to immorality" then God deliberately made His creature sinful. This is the problem with theologians. They don't know when to stop speculating.
quote:
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Let's not misapply this verse to the matter at hand. God will not only use the Wicked to bring evil upon this world "in the day of evil", but God will also bring evil upon the Wicked in eternal Hell for being wicked.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 2/17/2010 12:15:32 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/20/2010 11:10:12 AM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 323
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Before Abram ''believes God'' Genesis 15:6. You have God interceding in the life of Abram. Genesis 15:1-5. You insinuate Adam was not in right relationship with God because he took of the forbidden fruit. That he was innocent but not righteous. In pre fall creation Adam was very good and sinless and in right relationship with God. Post fall judgements are assessed and God Himself ''....makes garments of skin for Adam and his wife''. The garments of skin were God's provision for restoring Adam and Eve's fellowship with Himself. If Adam was condemned as you insinuate there would have been no need for such action by God. Why not let them run around with fig leaves for clothes? Adam was guilty of listening to the voice of his wife, not Satan. (Genesis 3:17.)
Jephthah murders his innocent daughter in spite of the provisions provided for rash vows in Leviticus 5:4-13. If there was ritual involved then it amounts to human sacrifice and you claim Jephthah is declared righteous because he is listed in Hebrews 11? Jephthah, in practice was a Canaanite and even in times of apostasy his actions towards his daughter were despicable.
As for quoting Proverbs 16:4..used that verse because i thought it applied to the thread as a whole which is ''The mystery of Evil.'' It is perfectly appropriate.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/20/2010 11:42:44 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
You insinuate Adam was not in right relationship with God because he took of the forbidden fruit. That he was innocent but not righteous.
I don't insinuate but let the facts speak for themselves. Had Adam been in "a right relationship" with God, he would have said: "Yes, Lord, under no circumstances will I or my wife eat of that forbidden fruit. That is your wish and your command, therefore it shall be obeyed". That's not what happened. And because Adam was created innocent, he could have also obeyed without deviation. But he deliberately and wilfully disobeyed. That is not "A right relationship".
quote:
If Adam was condemned as you insinuate there would have been no need for such action by God.
I am not insinuating that Adam was "condemned". I am simply pointing out a fact -- Adam and Eve were not mentioned in the Hall of Faith.
quote:
Adam was guilty of listening to the voice of his wife, not Satan. (Genesis 3:17.)
We should look at all related Scriptures, and there we find that Adam was not deceived by either Satan or his wife. He deliberately chose to disobey God: "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim. 2:14).
quote:
If there was ritual involved then it amounts to human sacrifice and you claim Jephthah is declared righteous because he is listed in Hebrews 11? .
As I said before, you are looking at Jephthah from a limited human perspective. And you are not even looking at the Bible record. It is God's assessment that matters. So let's get down to cases:
Heb. 11: 32,33 "Jephthah...David...Samuel ... and the prophets:who THROUGH FAITH subdued kingdoms..."
Did you get that? Was Jephthah a man of faith? And does Scripture say that those who believe God are accounted righteous? And did or did not Jephthah display his faith? Note carefully so that we do not come back to this again:
1. "And Jephthah said unto the elders of Gilead, If ye bring me home again to fight against the children of Ammon, AND THE LORD DELIVER THEM before me, shall I be your head?" (Judges 11:9). Did Jephthah believe that it is God who gives His people the victory because He is the Lord of hosts?
2. "And Jephthah uttered all his words before the LORD in Mizpeh" (Judges 11:11). Was Jephthah a man of prayer? Does prayer indicate that we trust in the living God? And are not those who so trust accounted righteous?
3. "And the LORD God of Israel delivered Sihon and all his people into the hand of Israel, and they smote them: so Israel possessed all the land of the Amorites, the inhabitants of that country" (Judges 11:21). These are Jephthah words to the king of Ammon, a heathen. Did Jephthah believe that God was the Deliverer of His people Israel? And do not those who believe thus trust in the living God? And is not their faith imputed to them for righteousness?
4. "So now the LORD God of Israel hath dispossessed the Amorites from before His people Israel, and shouldest thou possess it?" (Judges 11:23). Again these words are addresses to the king of Ammon. Whose power does Jephthah attribute the dispossession to? Is it not to the LORD God of Israel, and do not those who call Him YHWH God know and understand that He is their covenant God?
5. "So whomsoever the LORD our God shall drive out from before us, them will we possess" (Judges 11:24). Is YHWH God Jephthah's God? And does he not trust Him to drive out Israel's enemies? And is this not faith? and is not our faith accounted to us for righteousness? And is not Jephthah righteous on the grounds that God establishes? So who are you to say that Jephtha was unrigtheous? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
6. "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah..." (Judges 11:29). Does the Spirit of the LORD come upon believers or unbelievers? And are believers justified by faith, and therefore accounted righteous? So was Jephthah a believer or not?
7. "And Jepthah vowed a vow unto the LORD..." (Judges 11:30). Do the unrighteous and the unbelievers vow a vow unto the LORD?
I trust you will never again dare to call someone unrighteous whom God has justified freely by His grace.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/21/2010 5:59:19 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2619
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
There are quite a few fallacies in Mr. Sproul's statements:
You know we agree on many issues, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this statement. You are committing quite a massive spin with the way you copy/paste quotes from Sproul's piece, separating them from their context.
For example, you treat these three sentences separately, when they are actually part of the same paragraph, ideas that go together with a conclusion:
quote:
To this date, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what theologians call the mystery of iniquity.
quote:
Please don't send me letters giving your explanations, usually focusing on some dimension of human free will. I'm afraid that many people fail to feel the serious weight of this burden of explanation.
quote:
The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil,
You completely ignore the conclusion.
This is the actual paragraph:
quote:
To this date, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what theologians call the mystery of iniquity. Please don't send me letters giving your explanations, usually focusing on some dimension of human free will. I'm afraid that many people fail to feel the serious weight of this burden of explanation. The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil, in as much as we still must ask how a good being would be inclined freely to choose evil. The inclination for the will to act in an immoral manner is already a signal of sin.
The part I bolded is the conclusion that ties together the preceding sentences. You picked apart a few isolated sentences, but you failed to address the idea as Sproul intended it. In all fairness, your arguments fall a bit flat when you consider Sproul's paragraph all together as it was intended.
quote:
Nowhere in Scripture has God promised to give us a "satisfying explanation" for the mystery of iniquity. God is not necessarily interested in satisfying our curiosity about matters which are too high for us.
------------------
We are simply shown the factual existence of evil in this universe and that one day sin and evil will be totally eradicated from this universe. More to the point, God shows us that our only hope of redemption from sin and evil is the Lord Jesus Christ. And that should be of greater concern to all men than a sterlie philosophical explanation of the existence of sin and evil.
Sproul isn't arguing for a "satisfactory explanation" for the mystery of iniquity. You are bringing this assumption to Sproul's article based upon the one sentence of his that you erroneously isolated. You are jousting at strawmen, battling ideas that Sproul didn't present.
In FACT, to the contrary, you are just restating with different words the exact conclusion Sproul states in his concluding paragraph! I don't quite understand why you are trying to fabricate a disagreement. Maybe you should read the piece again?
Here is Sproul's concluding paragraph, which your conclusions essentially duplicate:
quote:
SPROUL: Again, we must be careful here. We must never say that evil is good, or that good is evil. But that is not the same thing as saying, "It is good that there is evil." Again, I repeat, it is good that there is evil, else evil could not exist. Even this theodicy does not explain the "how" of the entrance of evil into the world. It only reflects upon the "why" of the reality of evil. One thing we know for sure is that evil does exist. It exists, if nowhere else, in us and in our behavior. We know that the force of evil is extraordinary and brings great pain and suffering into the world. We also know that God is sovereign over it and in His sovereignty will not allow evil to have the last word. Evil always and ever serves the ultimate best interest of God Himself. It is God in His goodness and in His sovereignty who has ordained the final conquest over evil and its riddance from His universe. In this redemption we find our rest and our joy — and until that time, we live in a fallen world.
quote:
Is Sproul teaching that God made His creatures sinful at the time that He created them? That is contrary to Genesis 1:31 which says that "God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was "very good" (or excellent).
Read the conclusion. Again.
quote:
SPROUL: Again, we must be careful here. We must never say that evil is good, or that good is evil. But that is not the same thing as saying, "It is good that there is evil." Again, I repeat, it is good that there is evil, else evil could not exist.
That is really hard to argue against, even when you parse sentences and words!
_____________________________
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/21/2010 5:46:08 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
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quote:
To this date, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what theologians call the mystery of iniquity. Please don't send me letters giving your explanations, usually focusing on some dimension of human free will. I'm afraid that many people fail to feel the serious weight of this burden of explanation. The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil, in as much as we still must ask how a good being would be inclined freely to choose evil. The inclination for the will to act in an immoral manner is already a signal of sin.
Sproul is trying to "explain the origin of evil" or "the mystery of iniquity" therefore his assumption that Adam was "a good being" is false.
So is his concluding statement because there was no "already" with Adam. Adam was created innocent and untainted with sin.
Sproul simply does not wish to frankly admit that both Lucifer and Adam were created without any taint of sin but with the freedom to choose to love and obey God or despise and disobey God. And that indeed is "the origin of evil".
God is righteous in all His ways and holy in all His works. He cannot be tempted with sin, neither does He tempt man to sin. Neither did He put "the inclination of the will to act in an immoral manner" within Adam.
However, He did give men and angels free will, and the end result was sin and evil for "a season", since with God a thousand years are as one day.
God already knew that it would be so, therefore He created Hell for the devil and His angels, and prepared the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world for sinners.
One day sin and evil will be eradicated from this universe.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/21/2010 7:56:56 PM
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Obadyah
Posts: 433
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
To this date, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what theologians call the mystery of iniquity. Please don't send me letters giving your explanations, usually focusing on some dimension of human free will. I'm afraid that many people fail to feel the serious weight of this burden of explanation. The simple presence of free will is not enough to explain the origin of evil, in as much as we still must ask how a good being would be inclined freely to choose evil. The inclination for the will to act in an immoral manner is already a signal of sin.
Sproul is trying to "explain the origin of evil" or "the mystery of iniquity" therefore his assumption that Adam was "a good being" is false.
So is his concluding statement because there was no "already" with Adam. Adam was created innocent and untainted with sin.
Sproul simply does not wish to frankly admit that both Lucifer and Adam were created without any taint of sin but with the freedom to choose to love and obey God or despise and disobey God. And that indeed is "the origin of evil".
God is righteous in all His ways and holy in all His works. He cannot be tempted with sin, neither does He tempt man to sin. Neither did He put "the inclination of the will to act in an immoral manner" within Adam.
However, He did give men and angels free will, and the end result was sin and evil for "a season", since with God a thousand years are as one day.
God already knew that it would be so, therefore He created Hell for the devil and His angels, and prepared the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world for sinners.
One day sin and evil will be eradicated from this universe.
Just to add to Ezra's point. I think Sprouls is asking this question from the view point that God had no idea as to what would happen with man and evil. It's important to remember that when we read the process of how God formed this world and man. That he already knew the outcome before he did anything. So is it a tripwire even because all things were accounted good? No (Isaiah 28:10) tells us how we should read this book to avoid these little snares. Ezra makes a good point about Adam and being righteous. Truth is he had a good relationship with Christ, and yes he probably had the best circumstances any human has ever had, but none of those things make him righteous. When the moment came for him to chose no one tempted him to take of the fruit by death or persuassion of any kind. He elected to do so out of his free-will. Thus showing all of us that he was never righteous. How? Because immediately we see God's reaction to his disobedience of a direct order, which equaled removal.
Let me attempt to answer this quickly to make some clear statements on the topic.
1) No test for Adam doesn't mean he was righteous before God. He failed at his chance to show us this.
2) We must point out that God did not create them evil. Everything he created was “very good” (Genesis 1:31). God did not create anything evil, but he created what he knew would become evil by its own choice. Therefore the creation is responsible for its evil; God is not (this comes by way of Cary Cox)
3) The mystery of Iniquity is only one to us not God.
4) It sounds crazy but scripture supports the theme that evil must continue because it shows us not only how good God is, but it also shows us his glory. The one example we have is how God allowed his son to be taken by evil to only grant him glorious victory.
Hopefully this helps
< Message edited by Kushta -- 2/22/2010 8:07:52 AM >
_____________________________
" Live to Live Again"
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/22/2010 8:04:23 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 323
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
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First off as to Adam. Scripture plainly states all (including Adam was very good, not innocent which is a different Hebrew word i.e. naqi). Can go along with the context indicating meaning but that does not mean anyone can arbitrarily assign meanings to words in which the meaning is obvious. Words mean things. No where in scripture do i find the Hebrew word for good (towb) defined with the Hebrew word for innocent (naqi). No where do i find the Hebrew word for innocent associated with Adam. Yet Ezra insists Adam is innocent. But we know what he means. Even though the actual meaning of the words are different. I stated Adam was deceived by his wife, not Satan and use Genesis 3:17 as a reference..''Then to Adam He said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife...'' Ezra states to look at all related scriptures. Adam was not deceived by either Satan or his wife...(I did not print he was). Adam chose to disobey God.....agreed. I simply pointed out what Genesis 3:17 states. Adam listened to the voice of his wife. So now who is the one throwing up straw man arguments?
As for the status of Jephthah. i printed it is questionable. For me it is in the air although i hope u are right. Jephthah is a man of faith. I do have doubts given his behavior with his daughter. Which you did not address. Also given Leviticus 5:4-13. Which you did not address. Yes Jephthah was a great warrior. No disagreement there. Everything printed about all he done to liberate Israel is good. The fact the Spirit of the Lord comes upon Jephthah and he kicks booty is fine but you must also remember the Spirit of the Lord came upon Saul (1 Samuel 11:6) and Saul is not listed in Hebrews 11. Saul kicked butt but he also attempted to murder David and was responsible for the massacre at Nob (1 Samuel 22) Through Saul's henchman Doeg the Edomite 85 Priests were murdered, also men women children and infants along with oxen donkeys and sheep. Only one escaped. In the Old testament, the Spirit of the Lord coming upon men had different meaning than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the New. It did not get Saul into Hebrews 11 and it does not necessarily justify Jephthah. There is ample room for doubt.
I don't wish to create hard feelings here. I'm hoping others will benefit from our back and forth. it certainly got me to do in depth study the past few weeks. More than i normally would and that is a good thing. I have major surgery coming up at the end of the week so keep me in your prayers. God Bless.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/22/2010 10:45:32 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 323
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
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Looks like i screwed up in the first paragraph of post 22. The sentence which reads ''I stated Adam was deceived by his wife, not Satan.'' Should read...I stated, Adam was guilty of listening to the voice of his wife, not Satan.'' According to Genesis 3:17. (post 17 1st para)
Also in reference to your post in which you deny insinuating Adam was condemned. Refer to your statement...."Had Adam been in right relationship with God....'' (Insinuating he was not)...He would have scoffed at Satan and insisted his wife have no dialog with the Devil.'' Assuming, of course Adam was present but there is nothing to indicate Adam was there. Since the Serpent attacks at our weak points there is every reason to assume Adam was not present seeing as how his presence may have strengthen Eve's position. Two are better then one. Better to have Eve alone, from the Serpent's point of view. Also post 18.....''had Adam been in right relationship with God...'' Insinuating he was not. That is where i got that from. My position being, Adam was in right relationship with God, screws up, has judgements assessed, then God restores Adam. (Genesis 3:21) Perhaps condemned was too strong a word but you do insinuate Adam was not in right relationship with God. As a matter of fact you pretty much state he was not because of his behavior at the fall. Everybody knows Adam did not make the cut in Hebrews 11. When it comes to Adam you do far more than that. Is Isaiah or Jeremiah in Hebrews 11? Hebrews 11 is not exhaustive.
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/23/2010 9:57:26 AM
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Obadyah
Posts: 433
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: online
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I don't want to speak for Ezra so I'll leave those questions for him to answer since that's were you directed them. I have one question of my own though. Why are you so quick to mention what these people did that wasn't right? Does that somehow justify the point of the main question asked?
_____________________________
" Live to Live Again"
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RE: The Mystery of Evil - 2/23/2010 4:07:53 PM
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PastorSteveMT
Posts: 152
Joined: 5/27/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
I have so many differences with RC Sproul it's hard to keep focused on this one subject...
The Bible says God created it, but evil is not a direct creation from God. To give a crude and fallible example... we enter a room and turn on a light. Where the light is blocked a shadow forms. We created the shadow by turning on the light, but it was not our intent rather to illuminate the room. The shadow is a byproduct of that which opposed the light source.
God (in order to create beings that had the choice to love and obey him) had to create the option not to love him or obey him. Otherwise we would be like plant life responding to the sun and rain or like robots (mentioned in another thread here). There are two ways / philosophies in the universe and eternity: God's way and not God's way. Evil results from not God's way. It is a byproduct. God only created the capacity for it to exist... and he takes what does exist and uses it to the advantage of all those who love him and to achieve his will ultimately.
God is after all the Great Orchestrator of all things. So it should not be surprising that he makes even the evil men and angels choose to actually and ultimately serve him.
Mysteries like this or the Trinity or why we are here are not so hard to understand when they are viewed from God's perspective (which he tries to share with us in his word). That typically means throwing out our understanding completely and starting over, otherwise we bring along such baggage as "God can't use evil to his or our advantage..." says who? ... or "How can three be one?" three can be a compound one or unity like a family...
There are certain benchmark passages like 1 Corinthians 2 and Matthew 16:17 and Matthew 16:23 that juxtapose human so-called wisdom / understanding with God's... and this is the underlying theme of the entire Bible... having ears to hear and eyes to see... precept upon precept line upon line here a little there a little...
I just wanted to say that this was a great post.
For me it comes down to this. First I believe that in order to have COMPLETE AGAPE LOVE you must have free will. For if I cannot choose to love unconditionally, then it is not TRUE love at all.
This is the way that God wants us to love Him because it is the way He loves us. Therefore in order for me to fully love God I must be given the choice...and if I have a choice to love God freely, I have a choice to NOT love God. I therefore had the ability to choose to do evil.
Now most will agree with this for the most part. However I think there is often an overlooked view into this.
THIS WORLD IS NOT OUR HOME! That statement alone could set us all free if we allowed it to. For some reason we believe that we are here to be happy or that we deserve happiness. Those that are the reciepients of evil will say there is no God because someone did something or something happened to them that took away or prevented them from being happy on this earth. And to them, obviously if there was a God, He could have prevented this evil from happening and so since He didn't He either doesn't exist or isn't worthy of worship because He didn't prevent evil. Once again, this is still tied down to our perception of what THIS LIFE is supposed to be like.
However, I find the Scripture to quite clear about one unmistakeable thing. WE AREN'T PROMISED HAPPINESS, NOR ONE MORE MOMENT ON THIS EARTH. In fact, we are actually promised troubles and persecutions and our lives are actually compared to a vapor that is here today and gone tomorrow.
The bottom line for me is that it still comes down to a choice the same way it did on that fatefull day in the Garden of Eden. Do I choose to Love God will all my heart, soul, mind and strength? Or do I not?
And in the immortal words of a man who saw evil happen that was DIRECTLY ALLOWED by the hand of God:
Job 13:15 "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him"
May we all get to that place some day.
_____________________________
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