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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/16/2010 10:15:28 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Not at all, and I'd like to know where I ever implied that. As Christians (ones already saved) we most definitely have responsibilities to our God and Savior. I'm saying my works have nothing to do with my God provided Salvation. And what happens if an already saved Christian fails their "responsibilities"? Does that have any effect on their salvation?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/16/2010 11:21:56 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
How about good works being indicative of one's salvation?
Absolutely. We are saved by grace and "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Eph. 2:10). Therefore James says that faith without [good] works is dead [not saving faith].
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/16/2010 11:27:30 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
And what happens if an already saved Christian fails their "responsibilities"? Does that have any effect on their salvation?
None whatsoever. Peter failed in his responsibilities but his salvation was secure. The reason being that salvation is a Person -- Yeshua or Jesus -- and the one who has Christ within is saved eternally. Not only is He in us, but we are in Him.
What too many Christians forget is that salvation is God's GIFT to the sinner who believes on His Son. It cannot be earned or merited, neither can it be lost. "It" is really "HE". Christ is God's gift to the one who believes. And the one who believes is a new creature or creation in Christ. That is irreversible.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 7:30:07 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1985
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
And what happens if an already saved Christian fails their "responsibilities"? Does that have any effect on their salvation?
None whatsoever. Peter failed in his responsibilities but his salvation was secure. The reason being that salvation is a Person -- Yeshua or Jesus -- and the one who has Christ within is saved eternally. Not only is He in us, but we are in Him.
What too many Christians forget is that salvation is God's GIFT to the sinner who believes on His Son. It cannot be earned or merited, neither can it be lost. "It" is really "HE". Christ is God's gift to the one who believes. And the one who believes is a new creature or creation in Christ. That is irreversible.
So, theoretically, once we're saved we don't have to do anything to remain saved. In fact, anything we do, whether good or bad, has no bearing on our salvation at all. So, I guess we no longer need to ask God for forgiveness, we no longer need to repent, we no longer need to go to church, we no longer need to bear fruit unto righteousness. After all salvation is a gift and once we've got it it cannot be given back.
Somehow, that just doesn't sound right to me. Plus, I can't find anything in the Bible that says we can refuse to do those things and still be saved. In fact, just the opposite. Paul and others give numerous warnings to be people who continue to do these things or else our salvation will be in jeopardy.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 8:52:23 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Somehow, that just doesn't sound right to me. Plus, I can't find anything in the Bible that says we can refuse to do those things and still be saved. In fact, just the opposite. Paul and others give numerous warnings to be people who continue to do these things or else our salvation will be in jeopardy. Amen, gd46! The faulty concept that salvation is some kind of "irreversible gift" for which we have no responsibility to maintain, nurture, cherish, and utilize is foreign to every Book of the NT. These discussion forums have numerous apostates posting on them which should be a sober warning to all of us that salvation is only the beginning of our relationship with God and He will provide the grace we need to faithfully maintain that saving relationship with Him.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 9:06:24 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Amen, gd46! The faulty concept that salvation is some kind of "irreversible gift" for which we have no responsibility to maintain, nurture, cherish, and utilize is foreign to every Book of the NT. These discussion forums have numerous apostates posting on them which should be a sober warning to all of us that salvation is only the beginning of our relationship with God and He will provide the grace we need to faithfully maintain that saving relationship with Him.
If there are no good works, or if the good works cease; then without a doubt either salvation was never truly obtained, or was rejected by the person.
So many folks use the following verses for the end all of salvation;
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And totally ignore the very next verse that brings the conclusion (The essence) of the first two verses;
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 9:39:51 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Not at all, and I'd like to know where I ever implied that. As Christians (ones already saved) we most definitely have responsibilities to our God and Savior. I'm saying my works have nothing to do with my God provided Salvation. And what happens if an already saved Christian fails their "responsibilities"? Does that have any effect on their salvation?
Not in the least. The effect is the Chastening of the Father. If we would judge ourselves we would not be judged. A genuine believer cannot continue in sin. First, he has a new nature that will press him to do right just as much as his old nature will press him to do evil.(I delight in the law of God) Second, and greatest of all is the divine chastisement of his Father. Sin that is not dealt with in the life of the believer will be either confessed and repented of by the believer, or the Father will lay his mighty judgement upon him in Chastisement. Keeping in mind that all believers will endure chastisement at one point or another.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
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2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 9:45:00 AM
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Saved34
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quote:
Somehow, that just doesn't sound right to me. Plus, I can't find anything in the Bible that says we can refuse to do those things and still be saved. In fact, just the opposite. Paul and others give numerous warnings to be people who continue to do these things or else our salvation will be in jeopardy. How does this statement differ from these statements? In other words, God saved you, but now you must somehow maintain his salvation by good works or else you're in jeopardy. That's a pitiful representation of salvation and I would surely hate to die with that kind of foundation. Frankly, I'd be scared to death. Thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ, for only he is the solid foundation. Trust in him alone.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
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2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 9:48:52 AM
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Saved34
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quote:
And totally ignore the very next verse that brings the conclusion (The essence) of the first two verses; I think you are ignoring the verse your own self. 'We are his workmanship". We are created by nature to do good works. Not works to maintain salvation. That verse does not say anything of the sort. Neither does it deny the previous verses of their full power and effect.
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2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 12:48:41 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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Well, it is either a free gift or it isn't. And if you can lose this free gift, then it really isn't a free gift, it isn't even a gift at all.
If you have to earn it, it isn't a gift, it's quid pro quo, something for something.
Saying things like 'remaining saved' is an oxymoron. You are either saved or not saved. You can't be both, this is where faith comes from.
You have faith to believe that you are saved, and saved by the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. His grace.
And he says that this salvation is everlasting about fifteen times in John, so that there should be no doubt as to His intentions.
He said He would never forsake you. I believe it and have total confidence that He will keep His word.
Not only will He keep it, He has kept it for 30 years.
Finally, to call someone an apostate who claims Jesus Christ shows 'no grace' at all.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 1:42:11 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
A genuine believer cannot continue in sin. First, he has a new nature that will press him to do right just as much as his old nature will press him to do evil.(I delight in the law of God) Second, and greatest of all is the divine chastisement of his Father. Sin that is not dealt with in the life of the believer will be either confessed and repented of by the believer, or the Father will lay his mighty judgement upon him in Chastisement.
If that ideology is not a license to sin and go merrily on to Heaven; then there ain't a cow in Texas, nor an oil will in Oklahoma.
Sorry, but Christians are called to live a sanctified and holy life, or they are not Christians.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 1:46:38 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
A genuine believer cannot continue in sin. First, he has a new nature that will press him to do right just as much as his old nature will press him to do evil.(I delight in the law of God) Second, and greatest of all is the divine chastisement of his Father. Sin that is not dealt with in the life of the believer will be either confessed and repented of by the believer, or the Father will lay his mighty judgement upon him in Chastisement.
If that ideology is not a license to sin and go merrily on to Heaven; then there ain't a cow in Texas, nor an oil will in Oklahoma.
Sorry, but Christians are called to live a sanctified and holy life, or they are not Christians.
Thanks
RC
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 1:51:49 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9200
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
A genuine believer cannot continue in sin. First, he has a new nature that will press him to do right just as much as his old nature will press him to do evil.(I delight in the law of God) Second, and greatest of all is the divine chastisement of his Father. Sin that is not dealt with in the life of the believer will be either confessed and repented of by the believer, or the Father will lay his mighty judgement upon him in Chastisement.
If that ideology is not a license to sin and go merrily on to Heaven; then there ain't a cow in Texas, nor an oil will in Oklahoma.
Sorry, but Christians are called to live a sanctified and holy life, or they are not Christians.
Thanks
RC
Then, RC, there are no cows in Texas nor oil wells in OK, because, if you read that carefully, Saved34 is on solid biblical grounds. Which of these do you disagree with?:
>A genuine believer cannot continue in sin. (That sounds an awful like the holiness position to me)
>Sin that is not dealt with in the life of the believer will be either confessed and repented of by the believer, or the Father will lay his mighty judgement upon him in Chastisement. (I can give you chapter and verse if you find a problem in this one.)
Saved24's post is clear to me: there is NO license to sin or even a lifestyle of sin in the truly born again. And IF the truly born again strays, the Father will discipline him until he repents - no discipline for sin = there was no adoption as a son (salvation).
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 2:31:32 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Then, RC, there are no cows in Texas nor oil wells in OK, because, if you read that carefully, Saved34 is on solid biblical grounds. Which of these do you disagree with?:
>A genuine believer cannot continue in sin. (That sounds an awful like the holiness position to me)
>Sin that is not dealt with in the life of the believer will be either confessed and repented of by the believer, or the Father will lay his mighty judgement upon him in Chastisement. (I can give you chapter and verse if you find a problem in this one.)
Saved24's post is clear to me: there is NO license to sin or even a lifestyle of sin in the truly born again. And IF the truly born again strays, the Father will discipline him until he repents - no discipline for sin = there was no adoption as a son (salvation).
Possibly I misunderstood his post, but to me he said that a true believer does not continue in sin,
But if one does continue in sin who is "Saved":then the only problem would be some chastisement, not a recognition of not being truly saved (Matthew 7 20:23). I agree with the first statement that one who is saved does not continue in sin, but not in the caveats he lays down for those who do.
The post seems to blur the lines between being saved, and thinking one is saved.
And there are a lot of cowa in Texas. 
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 2:44:30 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9200
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If I understand Saved34's post, it seems to echo Hebrews 12:6-11, which says God chastises (disciplines) His sons when they require it and if no chastisement comes, then they are not sons, but frauds (my paraphrase).
Chastisement, IMHO, is only needed if waywardness (i.e. sin/disobedience) occurs and that in order "that we might be partakers of his holiness".
IOW, anyone living as if they have a license to sin are not saved. And if they teach others that, they are false teachers.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 2:49:10 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
So, theoretically, once we're saved we don't have to do anything to remain saved.
That's right. If you had anything to do to "remain" saved, you would also have had something to do to "be saved". But God says that eternal life is a gift. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth".
quote:
In fact, anything we do, whether good or bad, has no bearing on our salvation at all. So, I guess we no longer need to ask God for forgiveness, we no longer need to repent, we no longer need to go to church, we no longer need to bear fruit unto righteousness.
This of course is simply putting a spin on something that is not in Scripture. We are saved "unto good works" and to be conformed to the image of Christ. That includes dealing with ourselves and our sins. And yes, bearing fruit is also commanded.
quote:
After all salvation is a gift and once we've got it it cannot be given back.
Isn't that what the Bible declares? Read John 3:16.
quote:
Somehow, that just doesn't sound right to me. Plus, I can't find anything in the Bible that says we can refuse to do those things and still be saved.
The matter of "refusing" or "not refusing" to do what Christ has commanded is not the subject. Are we or are we not saved by grace? If so, is eternal life a gift, is justification a gift, is the Holy Spirit a gift? Yes or No?
quote:
In fact, just the opposite. Paul and others give numerous warnings to be people who continue to do these things or else our salvation will be in jeopardy.
Our salvation is never in jeopardy for the simple reason that oour salvation is our Savior, and He is never in jeopardy. He is the one who indwells the believer, and He is the one who keeps us eternally secure. That is actually the motivation for good works and the fruits of righteousness.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 2:54:21 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
A genuine believer cannot continue in sin.
This I agree with, but why the caveats that are put forth.
If one continues in sin then they are not saved.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 2:57:13 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
A genuine believer cannot continue in sin. First, he has a new nature that will press him to do right just as much as his old nature will press him to do evil.(I delight in the law of God) Second, and greatest of all is the divine chastisement of his Father. Sin that is not dealt with in the life of the believer will be either confessed and repented of by the believer, or the Father will lay his mighty judgement upon him in Chastisement.
If that ideology is not a license to sin and go merrily on to Heaven; then there ain't a cow in Texas, nor an oil will in Oklahoma.
Sorry, but Christians are called to live a sanctified and holy life, or they are not Christians.
No one is denying that Christians are called to live a sanctified and holy life. But you are denying that salvation -- eternal life -- Christ Himself -- is a gift to the undeserving sinner, and therefore cannot be taken back or "lost". This is doing despite to the Gospel.
BTW the thief on the cross went merrily on his way to Heaven without having done one good work to undo all his bad works. And the reason for that is because Christ Himself obeyed the Law of God perfectly for each one of us, then died the sinners death for each one of us. How is it that Christians stumble over God's free gift of eternal life?
BTW the Catholics also stumble over the free gift of eternal life. And I know you ain't no Catholic.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 3:07:48 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
No one is denying that Christians are called to live a sanctified and holy life. But you are denying that salvation -- eternal life -- Christ Himself -- is a gift to the undeserving sinner, and therefore cannot be taken back or "lost". This is doing despite to the Gospel.
Ezra, I am not referrencing "losing one's salvation" I am speaking to whether one is saved or not by the fruits (Good works) they exhibit. If there is no fruit (Good works) then the faith that the person claims is dead (James 2)
quote:
BTW the thief on the cross went merrily on his way to Heaven without having done one good work to undo all his bad works.
Did he, or did he go to Paradise?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 3:31:41 PM
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Saved34
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So RC, and any others who do not believe in eternal security. Am I off bases to say that you believe your assurance, your one way ticket to glory rests upon your service to God? Is that the grounds you stand on? In other words, as long as you do good you live, the minute you do not do good, you die?
The Bible says we have been Justified freely by his grace. Not just pardoned, but declared Righteous by the same God that is going to bring wrath on those who obey not the Gospel. This Justification is apart from any work, or merit we can do, or will do in the future. It is freely by his grace. I'm sorry if it sounds like a license to sin, but the pure Gospel cannot be compromised because some believe it too good to be true.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Hab 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Act 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Act 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 3:34:03 PM
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drmark
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Well, I can see this has deteriorated into a OSAS royal rumble. Guess I will excuse myself before the mods lock it down... 
My last point is this: it is totally unbiblical and unexperiential to claim that saving grace must be appropriated by faith while preserving grace just automatically covers everything from that point on without any responsibility on the Believer's part!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 9:29:00 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
So RC, and any others who do not believe in eternal security. Am I off bases to say that you believe your assurance, your one way ticket to glory rests upon your service to God? Is that the grounds you stand on? In other words, as long as you do good you live, the minute you do not do good, you die?
yes you are off base in assuming that about my beliefs.
You previously stated;
quote:
A genuine believer cannot continue in sin.
And I absolutely concur with this statement.
And if one continues in sin then they are not a genuine believer, no matter what they thnk or feel.
So it does matter concerning the life that one lives for it is indicitive of whether they are saved, or whether they are like the poor wretched souls in matthew 7 that Christ turns away from Heaven when he told them;
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Two things about these folks to be noticed are that Christ never knew them (They were never saved), and they worked (Continued in, lived a lifestyle of) iniquity (lawlessness, evil, sin).
So for folks to claim in one breath that Believers will not continue in sin, and in the next breath claim that sinning doesn't matter to the supposed Believer is disengenous at the very best.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 2/17/2010 9:35:26 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/17/2010 10:26:38 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
Two things about these folks to be noticed are that Christ never knew them (They were never saved), and they worked (Continued in, lived a lifestyle of) iniquity (lawlessness, evil, sin).
That's not what the verses bring out ,RC. In fact they shed light on the exact opposite, men who think they are doing work for the Lord. They prophesied, cast out devils..these are religious works.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
They had a zeal of God but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/18/2010 1:20:30 AM
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gralan
Posts: 2021
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Two things about these folks to be noticed are that Christ never knew them (They were never saved), and they worked (Continued in, lived a lifestyle of) iniquity (lawlessness, evil, sin).
So for folks to claim in one breath that Believers will not continue in sin, and in the next breath claim that sinning doesn't matter to the supposed Believer is disengenous at the very best.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
Howdy RC, other readers and viewers of the posts.
the full contextual quote is:
21. `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23. and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
That's the Young's literal translation.
So at least 3 of the things listed as iniquities are prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons in Jesus' name, and doing might things in Jesus' name.
In a woodenly literal sense, that just crossed off all of the Apostles off the list.
The point is that those who Jesus does know are those who do the will of the Father.
The Father draws us to Jesus. Jesus gives us back to the Father. No one can snatch them from the Father's hand. That is pure grace, at every step.
At last in Christ I'm truly free
for His holy name I submit my will
I will ever seek to bow the knee
and before Him to be still...................
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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