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Linkoln -> Saved By Grace (2/10/2010 5:14:46 PM)

The following is a great definition of Justification by Wayne Grudem from his Systematic Theology



In God's legal declaration of justification, he specifically declares that we are just in his sight. This declaration involves two aspects. First, it means that he declares that we have no penalty to pay for sin, including past, present, and future sins. After a long discussion of justification by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5:21), and a parenthetical discussion on remaining sin in the Christian life, Paul returns to his main argument in the book of Romans and tells what is true of those who have been justified by faith: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1). In this sense those who are justified have no penalty to pay for sin. This means that we are not subject to any charge of guilt or condemnation: "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?" (Rom. 8:33-34)

The ideal of full forgiveness of sins is prominent when Paul discusses justification by faith alone in Romans 4. Paul quotes David as pronouncing a blessing on one "to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works." He then recalls how David said, "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin" (Rom. 4:6-8). This justification therefore clearly involves the forgiveness of sins. David spoke similarly in Psalm 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us (cf. v.3).

The second aspect of justification is that God must declare us not to be merely neutral in his sight but actually to be righteous in his sight. In fact, he must declare us to have the merits of perfect righteousness before him. As a solution for our need for righteousness, Paul tells us that "the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe" (Rom. 3:21-22). He says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" (Rom. 4:3, quoting Gen. 15:6). This came about through the obedience of Christ, for Paul says at the end of this extensive discussion of justification by faith that "by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Rom. 5:19). The second aspect of God's declaration in justification, then, is that we have the merits of perfect righteousness.



I think this is a good definition for all to look at.



Reform_Dave -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/11/2010 12:23:06 AM)

quote:

I think this is a good definition for all to look at

I agree.



gralan -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/11/2010 1:48:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Linkoln

The following is a great definition of Justification by Wayne Grudem from his Systematic Theology


After a long discussion of justification by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5:21), and a parenthetical discussion on remaining sin in the Christian life, Paul returns to his main argument in the book of Romans and tells what is true of those who have been justified by faith: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1). "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?" (Rom. 8:33-34)
I think this is a good definition for all to look at.


I also agree. The point of the Christian walk is moving past the point of being wrapped up with issues of salvation for ourselves and being focused on Jesus and His ministry in the world through us.

I've tried to redirect the focus of some of the direction in some threads because while some distinction of vocabulary and ideas is important it has to go somewhere or the discussion is moot.

IMO.



drmark -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/13/2010 6:29:49 PM)

While I have no formal training in Theology, I have paged through portions of Dr Grudem's classic textbook and I know for a fact that he is strongly Calvinistic in most of his soteriology. Thus, as a Wesleyan/Holiness adherent, I must disagree somewhat with his approach to "declared righteousness" as exerpted above. We not only are "declared to have the merits of perfect righteousness before God" but we are actually made righteous by His grace and power so that we can live righteously before Him. I'm concerned that Grudem places a little too much emphasis on "God's declaring" and not nearly enough on "us becoming". 2 Cor 5:21 - "God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Thus I believe that justification means not only that we are saved in our sins (imputed righteousness), but that we are saved from our sin (imparted righteousness).



jjbird -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/13/2010 8:12:52 PM)

Being saved by grace does not nor ever has excluded obedience to Christ's commands.



Ezra -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/14/2010 5:34:46 PM)

quote:

We not only are "declared to have the merits of perfect righteousness before God" but we are actually made righteous by His grace and power so that we can live righteously before Him.


While I am not familiar with Grudem (and I have little interest in theologians), I will say this:

1. We are not "declared to have the merits of perfect righteousness" (which is unnecessarily wordy and misleading -- the marks of a true theologian) but we are declared to be perfect -- as perfect as God -- " we are made the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Cor. 5:21). That is justification and that is receiving the "robe" of the righteousness of Christ. We are clothed with His righteousness, therefore perfect in God's sight.

2. When you speak of "actually being made righteous" that is the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification, which follows justification. Perhaps his focus was not on sanctification, but neither should it be divorced from justification, or ignored altogether.

The way to look at this is to see that in light of the Person and finished work of Christ, God the righteous Judge declares us sinners as perfect (because we have believed on Christ) and then gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit so that we will be sanctified continuously until we are conformed to the image of His Son.



Ezra -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/14/2010 5:37:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjbird
Being saved by grace does not nor ever has excluded obedience to Christ's commands.


You seem to be suggesting that salvation is not a gift of God's grace but contingent upon our obedience. This would be erroneous.

Or is it that obedience must follow salvation in order to establish the genuineness of our justification? This would be correct.



rcjames -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/15/2010 12:18:16 PM)

Where does this passage fit into the discussion;

(Rom 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.

(Rom 12:2) And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

I just do not see how being "Declared" or even "Made" righteious brings about the instructions above without some effort on the part of the Believer.

Thanks
RC



drmark -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/15/2010 12:55:48 PM)

quote:

2. When you speak of "actually being made righteous" that is the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification, which follows justification. Perhaps his focus was not on sanctification, but neither should it be divorced from justification, or ignored altogether.
Interesting, Ezra. Do you consider "sanctification" in this context to be a distinct and second work of the Holy Spirit which must always follow His initial and distinct work of "justification"? Is it possible for some Believers to be both justified and sanctified simultaneously so that they are both declared and made righteous at the same time?



Ezra -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/15/2010 9:06:57 PM)

quote:

Interesting, Ezra. Do you consider "sanctification" in this context to be a distinct and second work of the Holy Spirit which must always follow His initial and distinct work of "justification"? Is it possible for some Believers to be both justified and sanctified simultaneously so that they are both declared and made righteous at the same time?


drmark:

I would not suggest that sanctification is a "second work" of the Holy Spirit, unless you wish to say that convicting and convincing the sinner is His "first work". Then it is perfectly logical.

However, it is not only possible for all believers to be both justified and sanctified simultaenously, but in fact Scripture does teach that there are three "tenses" to sanctification: (a) we are already sanctified when the Holy Spirit is given to us as a gift and Christ comes to dwell within us, He Himself being "our sanctification" (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Thess. 2:13); (b) we are being sanctified progressively "from glory to glory" as we see Christ in Scripture and follow Him (2 Cor. 3:18); and (c) we shall be perfectly sanctified when we see Christ face to face at His appearing (1 Jn. 3:1-3). In the first "tense" justification is simultaenous with sanctification.

What I was referring to was our "progressive sanctification" (second "tense") to which RC has referred by bringing forward Romans 12:1,2. This is not immediate, but occurs as the Word of God and the Holy Spirit work on the believer. Since our "flesh" or "old man" is not eradicated at salvation, it must be "mortified daily" which means we are to take up our cross "daily". And we can and will sin, even though sin can no longer have dominion over us. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 Jn. 1:8).

quote:

I just do not see how being "Declared" or even "Made" righteious brings about the instructions above without some effort on the part of the Believer.


RC:

What we see in Rom. 12:1,2 is subsequent to being declared righteous (justified) and being made righteous (sanctified by the gift of the Holy Spirit). As you can see, our part is to "present our bodies a living sacrifice" while God's part is thus: "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). Our santification is the work of the Holy Spirit within us, causing us to be changed into the likeness of Christ from the likeness of Adam. Our "effort" is our submission to God. Whence the command "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).

I trust we see eye-to-eye on this.



jjbird -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/15/2010 11:32:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjbird
Being saved by grace does not nor ever has excluded obedience to Christ's commands.


You seem to be suggesting that salvation is not a gift of God's grace but contingent upon our obedience. This would be erroneous.

Or is it that obedience must follow salvation in order to establish the genuineness of our justification? This would be correct.



Salvation from God has conditions. Obedience is one of them.

Obedience must follow salvation as well however we must obey in order to be saved. The bible says so explicitly.

Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."



rcjames -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 8:13:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
RC:

What we see in Rom. 12:1,2 is subsequent to being declared righteous (justified) and being made righteous (sanctified by the gift of the Holy Spirit). As you can see, our part is to "present our bodies a living sacrifice" while God's part is thus: "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). Our santification is the work of the Holy Spirit within us, causing us to be changed into the likeness of Christ from the likeness of Adam. Our "effort" is our submission to God. Whence the command "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).

I trust we see eye-to-eye on this.


We do see eye to eye on this, I just wonder if the "Hyper-gracers" would consider presenting ourselvea ri vw a "Work" in thier ideology?

Thanks
RC



drmark -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 8:25:37 AM)

quote:

I would not suggest that sanctification is a "second work" of the Holy Spirit, unless you wish to say that convicting and convincing the sinner is His "first work". Then it is perfectly logical.
Thanks for the clarification, Ezra. I do not consider prevenient grace to be a distinct work of the Holy Spirit like saving grace is, because the former is available to all people, both unsaved and saved. It seemed to me from your use of the word "following" in post #6 that you were describing justification and sanctification as two distinct events/processes. That is how I have experienced them in my Christian walk, but obviously God works uniquely in all of us.



drmark -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 8:28:10 AM)

quote:

We do see eye to eye on this, I just wonder if the "Hyper-gracers" would consider presenting ourselvea ri vw a "Work" in thier ideology?
I get the impression from many "Hyper-gracers" that even the act of drawing in our God-given breath is a "Work" equivalent to "filthy rags"...[8|]



gralan -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 9:15:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
RC:

What we see in Rom. 12:1,2 is subsequent to being declared righteous (justified) and being made righteous (sanctified by the gift of the Holy Spirit). As you can see, our part is to "present our bodies a living sacrifice" while God's part is thus: "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). Our santification is the work of the Holy Spirit within us, causing us to be changed into the likeness of Christ from the likeness of Adam. Our "effort" is our submission to God. Whence the command "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).

I trust we see eye-to-eye on this.


We do see eye to eye on this, I just wonder if the "Hyper-gracers" would consider presenting ourselvea ri vw a "Work" in thier ideology?

Thanks
RC


I'm quoting you RC because of your use of "Hyper-gracers".
If a person believes that we can sin freely because of God's grace then they are not hyper-gracers, they are people unaffected by God's grace.

Jesus told the parable about the forgiven debtor who then pressed someone owing them a mere pittance in comparison.

I think the term hyper-gracers was used to mock other Christians in this thread.

I do not see how else to interpret your words.

If a person believes that obedience to God is the basis of our salvation, then that person is also unaffected by the grace of God.

God's word is plain. However if you mean that someone needs to obey what you believe God demands of them to do, then you RC and others are on shaky ground.

Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly,... let all be harmonious, kind-hearted, brotherly, sympathetic...
I'm trying to get a message across and it is falling on deaf ears.

Why is it that contention marks the threads where memorable posters end up posting a lot of material?

I think that we all need to grace of God in everything we do, even if we think we are being obedient we are not doing so in the extent that we should.

We are not a finished work in Christ, even though Christ's work is finished.

Please help me understand who you mean, even if its me, as being hyper-gracers (IYW).



rcjames -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 9:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gralan
I'm quoting you RC because of your use of "Hyper-gracers".
If a person believes that we can sin freely because of God's grace then they are not hyper-gracers, they are people unaffected by God's grace.

Jesus told the parable about the forgiven debtor who then pressed someone owing them a mere pittance in comparison.

I think the term hyper-gracers was used to mock other Christians in this thread.


Well my Brother, you are sorely mistaken.

I use that term, as you said, for folks who think that Grace automatically covers all sin, unrepented, uncofessed, willful, etc; when Grace is God's unmerited favor towards us in offering us salvation. Now what we do with that offer is up to us.

Some will accept it;

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Some will reject it;

(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I think Paul well stated my position on this:

(Rom 6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

(Rom 6:2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Thanks
RC



gralan -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 9:42:04 AM)

RC,

I would agree, if this is your intent, to state that what we do with God's grace determines our ability to obey God.

And the work that God calls us to is to love just as the Heavenly Father loves; showing mercy and good works to the righteous and the unrighteous, just as Jesus said to do in His sermon on the Mount.

We receive God's grace as a free gift to us, purchased by Jesus, and we obtain that grace through faith alone, and not be works, lest anyone should boast.

This is according to the Scripture in my English Bible.



rcjames -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 10:23:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gralan

RC,

I would agree, if this is your intent, to state that what we do with God's grace determines our ability to obey God.

And the work that God calls us to is to love just as the Heavenly Father loves; showing mercy and good works to the righteous and the unrighteous, just as Jesus said to do in His sermon on the Mount.

We receive God's grace as a free gift to us, purchased by Jesus, and we obtain that grace through faith alone, and not be works, lest anyone should boast.

This is according to the Scripture in my English Bible.


Do you consider "Presenting ourselves" as a work, or does God do that for us also?

Thanks
RC



Saved34 -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 2:07:22 PM)

If our Salvation is conditioned upon our service then it is a work and no more grace. It's really simple yet so hard for the natural mind to grasp.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


If Salvation hinges on any act of mine, or any good doing of mine, Grace is removed and it has now become a dept. If my good living and doing is the only thing that keeps me safe before God then Christ has become of no effect and I have placed myself under the curse of the law. Christ himself is our peace with God. Call it judging, call it ill mannered, makes no difference, but any man who believes his salvation is hanging in the balance at every moment or contingent upon his moment by moment obedience, is either a Saint that is ensnared in error, or he has never recieved God's salvation. As Dr. Green used to say, "the devil has slipped him a counterfeit".



rcjames -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 2:23:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved34

If our Salvation is conditioned upon our service then it is a work and no more grace. It's really simple yet so hard for the natural mind to grasp.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


If Salvation hinges on any act of mine, or any good doing of mine, Grace is removed and it has now become a dept. If my good living and doing is the only thing that keeps me safe before God then Christ has become of no effect and I have placed myself under the curse of the law. Christ himself is our peace with God. Call it judging, call it ill mannered, makes no difference, but any man who believes his salvation is hanging in the balance at every moment or contingent upon his moment by moment obedience, is either a Saint that is ensnared in error, or he has never recieved God's salvation. As Dr. Green used to say, "the devil has slipped him a counterfeit".


So you are saying that a person who is a "Christian" can live their lives in any manner they so choose and still be considered a child of God?

John seems to disagree with you;

(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So I ask you is "Presenting yourself" as here;

(Rom 12:1-2) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

to be a "Work"?

Thanks
RC



Ezra -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 2:36:11 PM)

quote:

Salvation from God has conditions. Obedience is one of them.


Yes. Salvation does have conditions. Repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)

quote:

Obedience must follow salvation as well however we must obey in order to be saved. The bible says so explicitly.


This obedience is obedience to the Gospel -- "But now God commandeth all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30) and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shlat be saved" (Acts 16:31).

Salvation is never by the works of the Law, because "It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5).

quote:

Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.


Obedience to the commands of the Gospel does bring us to eternal salvation.

quote:

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


See Acts 2:38 for understanding this passage. Once again it is obedience to the Gospel.



Ezra -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 2:44:05 PM)

quote:

Do you consider "Presenting ourselves" as a work, or does God do that for us also?


Nothing that a Christian does in response to the Word and the Spirit is entirely his own, because in everything it is God who works in us. Therefore "presenting ourselves" is the work of Christ within the believer.
We should keep in mind what Christ said regarding the Vine and the branches. "Without me ye can do NOTHING".



Saved34 -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 2:59:54 PM)

quote:

So you are saying that a person who is a "Christian" can live their lives in any manner they so choose and still be considered a child of God?
Not at all, and I'd like to know where I ever implied that. As Christians (ones already saved) we most definitely have responsibilities to our God and Savior. I'm saying my works have nothing to do with my God provided Salvation.






quote:

John seems to disagree with you;


When have I ever said a child of God can live in sin and still claim to be a born one of God? John is not saying what you are trying to force in the text. He is saying by nature,one who practices sin is of the devil. Whoever he may be that practices sin is not of God but is of the devil. A Child of God cannot be mastered by sin, niether will he practice sin as his lifestyle. We know this because you can go back a few verses and read this.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

quote:

So I ask you is "Presenting yourself" as here; a work


It sure is. Why would you equate this verse with our Salvation though? Paul says I Beseech you BRETHREN (saved men). That word beseech is tender, it is a call upon the renewed heart to render itself to the service of God, why? Because of the mercy he has already given us in his great salvation. This is a reasonable service of every believer. In essence, he is saying you are called, justified, glorified, redeemed, now walk worthy of this high calling as Saints of God ought to.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,



Saved34 -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 3:20:56 PM)

Works are good. We are a people zealous of good works, our good works are pleasing to God and it also makes us joyful. Man's natural inclination is that he has to do something to appease God's wrath. As long as he is ,in his own mind,good, then God is happy. Once the heart understands that we are at peace with God because he himself provided the offering for our sins, then can we have a real genuine assurance before God, then can we have joy unspeakable and full of glory. Anything else is a yoke, and not the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Imposter's are placing yokes on true Christians necks everyday. It is nothing more than satan trying to keep us from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:




Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

We have peace with God, not through our good giving, our abstaining, our prayers, our not sinning, we have peace through the solid foundation, the only foundation which is Our Lord Jesus Christ.



rcjames -> RE: Saved By Grace (2/16/2010 3:47:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saved34
Not at all, and I'd like to know where I ever implied that. As Christians (ones already saved) we most definitely have responsibilities to our God and Savior. I'm saying my works have nothing to do with my God provided Salvation.


How about good works being indicative of one's salvation?

Thanks
RC



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