RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check???
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 2:04:20 PM
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trey182
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
I think i read somewhere that your only eligible for money from welfare if you have kids, other than that, its mostly food stamps and things like that (non-cash help.) So part of me wants to say "yes, drug test" but a bigger part of me wants to say "no, dont require a drug test" and this is why:
Drugs like marijuana can show up on a drug test over a month after you have taken them. If there is a parent who is at a function at a friends house, and is offered marijuana, and they take it, then I don't think that they should be penalized for that, because they are not hurting anybody by occasionally doing this, and they are not even spending welfare money on it. Yet they could still get caught and have money for their child taken away, just because some people have some personal hangup about a drug. Anyone who wants to take away help to a family in need because they tested positive for some pot is just cruel in my opinion. If, however, the parent was addicted to crack and spent all the money buying it, and were very irresponsible, then it should be taken. But you have to work out a system that isn't going to hurt innocent people, it can't be a simple drug test. And if someone did test positive for crack or heroine, it would also have to be proved that they were using welfare money on the drugs (they could be doing some other kind of work in exchange for the drugs.)
So... ultimately my opinion now is no, they shouldn't necessarily be subject to a drug test, although there should be some measure to stop people from abusing it. But a simple drug test isn't it.
So where does one draw the line in illegal drug activity? "I smoked pot (illegally), but I didn't pay for it with welfare money, so please don't penalize me" is still breaking the law.
If there were such a policy in place what would the response be? "I understand that even though you broke the law, you did not use the funds to support your illegal activity, so you can still have your welfare $".
It doesn't make sense to me.
There are some states where it is perfectly legal to use marijuana if they have a medical marijuana card. But there is already a thread to debate cannabis, so i won't get too far into it here, the cannabis thread can be found HERE
My point is, this policy (drug tests for welfare) can hurt people who aren't even breaking the law. And it can also hurt people who aren't even hurting anybody else. There is a law (or was, idk if it is a law anymore) in the state i live in (NC) that says bingo games cannot last over 5 hours unless it is at a fair. It is a very strange and weird law, and having a bingo game that lasted over 5 hours means that you would be breaking the law. Also, it is illegal (or was at one time, might still be) in Georgia to use profanity in front of a dead body which lies in a funeral home or in a coroners office. These are such ridiculous laws and taking away someones welfare because they "broke the law" in any of these dumb crimes is just crazy. It is totally unrelated to welfare.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 2:09:58 PM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
I think i read somewhere that your only eligible for money from welfare if you have kids, other than that, its mostly food stamps and things like that (non-cash help.) So part of me wants to say "yes, drug test" but a bigger part of me wants to say "no, dont require a drug test" and this is why:
Drugs like marijuana can show up on a drug test over a month after you have taken them. If there is a parent who is at a function at a friends house, and is offered marijuana, and they take it, then I don't think that they should be penalized for that, because they are not hurting anybody by occasionally doing this, and they are not even spending welfare money on it. Yet they could still get caught and have money for their child taken away, just because some people have some personal hangup about a drug. Anyone who wants to take away help to a family in need because they tested positive for some pot is just cruel in my opinion. If, however, the parent was addicted to crack and spent all the money buying it, and were very irresponsible, then it should be taken. But you have to work out a system that isn't going to hurt innocent people, it can't be a simple drug test. And if someone did test positive for crack or heroine, it would also have to be proved that they were using welfare money on the drugs (they could be doing some other kind of work in exchange for the drugs.)
So... ultimately my opinion now is no, they shouldn't necessarily be subject to a drug test, although there should be some measure to stop people from abusing it. But a simple drug test isn't it.
So where does one draw the line in illegal drug activity? "I smoked pot (illegally), but I didn't pay for it with welfare money, so please don't penalize me" is still breaking the law.
If there were such a policy in place what would the response be? "I understand that even though you broke the law, you did not use the funds to support your illegal activity, so you can still have your welfare $".
It doesn't make sense to me.
There are some states where it is perfectly legal to use marijuana if they have a medical marijuana card. But there is already a thread to debate cannabis, so i won't get too far into it here, the cannabis thread can be found HERE
My point is, this policy (drug tests for welfare) can hurt people who aren't even breaking the law. And it can also hurt people who aren't even hurting anybody else. There is a law (or was, idk if it is a law anymore) in the state i live in (NC) that says bingo games cannot last over 5 hours unless it is at a fair. It is a very strange and weird law, and having a bingo game that lasted over 5 hours means that you would be breaking the law. Also, it is illegal (or was at one time, might still be) in Georgia to use profanity in front of a dead body which lies in a funeral home or in a coroners office. These are such ridiculous laws and taking away someones welfare because they "broke the law" in any of these dumb crimes is just crazy. It is totally unrelated to welfare.
I'm not arguing the use of "legal" drugs in my post. (In fact, I said "illegal" three times to make that point clear).
I just think the idea that if there WERE such a rule in place, technicalities (of who purchased the illegal drugs and with what funds) are just plain silly. Kind of goes along with the "I didn't inhale".
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 2:22:02 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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If you believe in obeying the law, then stupid laws count too. It's not that hard. It's illegal. Don't do it.
And some case by case analysis of every welfare recipient who uses pot/drugs is a practical impossibility. It's either a policy or it's not. There isn't enough time and manpower to chase down every unlikely loophole.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 5:56:41 PM
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trey182
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
If you believe in obeying the law, then stupid laws count too. It's not that hard. It's illegal. Don't do it.
And some case by case analysis of every welfare recipient who uses pot/drugs is a practical impossibility. It's either a policy or it's not. There isn't enough time and manpower to chase down every unlikely loophole.
So do you think it would be fair to take away a persons welfare check, which goes to their children, if they host a bingo game that lasts over 5 hours in NC? Because, as crazy as it sounds, that was a law. How is that in any way fair? I agree that there isn't enough time or manpower to analyze every single case. So why are we going to punish those who aren't hurting anybody because some people abuse things, because that is what this policy would do. Yes, it would prevent some from abusing the system in that way, but it would also be devastating to some people who haven't hurt anyone, and that's not a compromise that I personally would be willing to make.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
It's a simple answer IMO: IF illegal substances are found in your system during a routine/random drug test, then you are ineligible for government assistance PERIOD. It doesn't matter if you were sitting by someone smoking a joint, it doesn't matter if you smoked but didn't buy it, it doesn't matter if you smoked but "didn't inhale".
So if a single mother trying to provide for her family walks out of a grocery store and walks passed a group of people smoking a joint, and somehow it is found in her system, you honestly think that the fair thing to do is to take away her welfare? What about her and her kids? And what do you gain out of it? A couple saved taxpayer dollars? The knowing that the people abusing the system in that way cannot abuse it in that way any longer? Is that worth having a mother and her children go hungry? I don't think it is. To take away money for someones kids for something so trivial is just plain cruel. Thats my opinion anyways.
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Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 6:04:20 PM
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pink..
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Posting somewhat blindly.
I think it's a good idea to drug test for welfare and also for disability.
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
I think it's simple:
If I can fail a drug test and lose my job, then the same should be true for welfare.
Drugs are ILLEGAL...overeating is not.
Good point doink. Also, many times the obesity comes from the types of foods that some welfare recipients have to eat. Many times it's a diet very high in fat and starch.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 6:24:42 PM
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Kath
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quote:
o do you think it would be fair to take away a persons welfare check, if they host a bingo game that lasts over 5 hours in NC? Because, as crazy as it sounds, that was a law.
Besides not being the topic of this thread, it sounds like it isn't even a law anymore.
Please do not belabor this point.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 6:25:17 PM
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Kath
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quote:
o if a single mother trying to provide for her family walks out of a grocery store and walks passed a group of people smoking a joint, and somehow it is found in her system, you honestly think that the fair thing to do is to take away her welfare?
Show me where this has happened, because frankly I don't believe it.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 7:11:16 PM
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bolt.
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I think the answer to the "it wasn't really my fault" or "it was only once" sorts of situations would be to do as one of the earliest posts said, and redirect the 'welfare' money to a recovery program, if the person is willing to attend it.
Now perhaps for a first offense, people could do an 'out patient' program... and maybe some low level of benefits would continue as long as they were in good-status with the terms of the program (so they could pay rent/food costs, which would not be the case with an in-patient facility).
In that plan, if the people running the program were to say, "You are clearly not an addict." and signed a release from the program, the normal benefits, and normal life, could resume. (This presumes that the people running the program are qualified professionals who have an accountability structure around them, who would not / could not release people unwisely.)
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 7:26:50 PM
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trey182
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From: North Carolina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
o if a single mother trying to provide for her family walks out of a grocery store and walks passed a group of people smoking a joint, and somehow it is found in her system, you honestly think that the fair thing to do is to take away her welfare?
Show me where this has happened, because frankly I don't believe it.
The poster i was responding to said:
quote:
...It doesn't matter if you were sitting by someone smoking a joint...
If it is possible for it to enter your system second hand (idk if it is or not, i was just responding to this person) then the above scenario is very possible. Or they might be at a friends house, and someone might sit right beside them and start smoking a joint. Even if they get up to leave, then if any of that smoke gets to them, if they aren't fast enough, then they have it in their system and according to this policy are no longer eligible for welfare. (assuming you can get it second hand, which I am not sure if it's possible. Again, i was following up on another post who apparently thinks it is.)
Also, if they are on welfare in the states, and then they take a trip to visit family in, say, Amsterdam, and they smoke in amsterdam (where it is legal) then their welfare can be taken away here if this policy is enforced. The policy just isn't fair to the needy.
It is not fair to take away money someone needs for their children's school supplies and clothes and other things just because people don't agree with a substance the person has used. It's just downright cruel to make children pay because the government wants to force a personal morality on people.
Also, the stuff i said about other laws was completely relevant to the discussion at hand if you read it in context with all the previous posts, but i guess that doesn't matter now.
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1 John 4:8 -- John 15:13 -- Matthew 22:36-40 -- Galatians 5:22
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 7:41:41 PM
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zoebob
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quote:
Also, if they are on welfare in the states, and then they take a trip to visit family in, say, Amsterdam, and they smoke in amsterdam (where it is legal) then their welfare can be taken away here if this policy is enforced. The policy just isn't fair to the needy.
Of course if someone is on welfare/FS they probably can't afford to got o Amsterdam. I know, the family there could pay their way
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 7:59:25 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
It is not fair to take away money someone needs for their children's school supplies and clothes and other things just because people don't agree with a substance the person has used. It's just downright cruel to make children pay because the government wants to force a personal morality on people.
This way of framing the issue is what is not "fair". First not one is taking anything away from the recipients. This is not a right. It may be a social good, but it is not an obligation of government to take money from one citizen and give it to another based on the relative perceived needs of the two. When charity is withhold, the children of the recipient are not made to pay. They are left as they are. When charity is forcibly taken, the children of the one from whom the money comes are forced to pay. Stated in this way, the conclusion follows. It's just downright cruel to make children pay because the government wants to force a personal morality on people.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 8:08:47 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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So it's fair to test people who ARE looking for or getting jobs, but not those who are being taken care of by the government. Interesting. And as far as kids go, there are all kinds of programs out there for kids, including the foster care system if worse comes to worst. And I have never heard of a person on welfare who could go on a European vacation.
Again, it is illegal in many states. That is a law, not forcing morality. We decide whether to follow the law of that land, and that includes facing the consequences when we don't.
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Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 8:26:26 PM
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Consecrated2God
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What about the children of people looking for jobs who get turned down because they couldn't pass the drug test? Should employers not give drug tests to employees for the sake of the children, too?
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Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 9:33:23 PM
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pink..
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
o if a single mother trying to provide for her family walks out of a grocery store and walks passed a group of people smoking a joint, and somehow it is found in her system, you honestly think that the fair thing to do is to take away her welfare?
Show me where this has happened, because frankly I don't believe it.
The poster i was responding to said:
quote:
...It doesn't matter if you were sitting by someone smoking a joint...
If it is possible for it to enter your system second hand (idk if it is or not, i was just responding to this person) then the above scenario is very possible. Or they might be at a friends house, and someone might sit right beside them and start smoking a joint. Even if they get up to leave, then if any of that smoke gets to them, if they aren't fast enough, then they have it in their system and according to this policy are no longer eligible for welfare. (assuming you can get it second hand, which I am not sure if it's possible. Again, i was following up on another post who apparently thinks it is.)
Also, if they are on welfare in the states, and then they take a trip to visit family in, say, Amsterdam, and they smoke in Amsterdam (where it is legal) then their welfare can be taken away here if this policy is enforced. The policy just isn't fair to the needy.
It is not fair to take away money someone needs for their children's school supplies and clothes and other things just because people don't agree with a substance the person has used. It's just downright cruel to make children pay because the government wants to force a personal morality on people.
Also, the stuff i said about other laws was completely relevant to the discussion at hand if you read it in context with all the previous posts, but i guess that doesn't matter now.
I'm sure you've heard the cliche before, but life ain't fair!
Is it somehow more fair to force taxpayers to support drug abusers and give them money to buy their drugs? You can't buy alcohol on food stamps even though alcohol is used in some recipes. The odds of someone using alcohol for a recipe are probably greater than the odds that someone would fail a drug test in all of your scenarios put together. There is no way that I would support any of those arguements.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 9:41:44 PM
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trey182
Posts: 365
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From: North Carolina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
What about the children of people looking for jobs who get turned down because they couldn't pass the drug test? Should employers not give drug tests to employees for the sake of the children, too?
Personally, I think that a person getting a job should be based purely on how they do the job. I don't think it should be based around their race, gender, what food they eat, if they smoke, if they do drugs, what their favorite tv show is, if they drink, what color their house is, any of that. It should be based purely on their ability to do the work and get the job done. If they can't do the work, for whatever reason, be it drugs, alcohol, lack of work ethic, or anything else, then the job goes to someone else who can get it done. But if someone can smoke marijuana on the weekends and work on the weekdays, if someone can drink alcohol on the weekends and work on the weekdays, fine, what they do on their own time is their own business. In the same way I don't think a persons personal doings should have any effect on whether they can or cannot receive welfare, as long as those personal doings aren't hurting anybody else. But keep in mind I don't think people should be put in prisons for using drugs if they so choose. Anyways, I've said what I think, and all I can really do here is state my opinion : )
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 9:43:07 PM
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trey182
Posts: 365
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From: North Carolina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pink..
I'm sure you've heard the cliche before, but life ain't fair!
Is it somehow more fair to force taxpayers to support drug abusers and give them money to buy their drugs? You can't buy alcohol on food stamps even though alcohol is used in some recipes. The odds of someone using alcohol for a recipe are probably greater than the odds that someone would fail a drug test in all of your scenarios put together. There is no way that I would support any of those arguements.
If someone is using the welfare money for drugs, fine take it away, but first you have to prove that they are indeed using that money for drugs. And a drug test doesn't prove that they use the money for drugs, it just proves that they have used the drugs. Just my opinion anyways.
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Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 9:58:27 PM
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pink..
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From: Indiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
In the same way I don't think a persons personal doings should have any effect on whether they can or cannot receive welfare, as long as those personal doings aren't hurting anybody else.
I hate to burst your bubble, but there are no victimless crimes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
quote:
ORIGINAL: pink..
I'm sure you've heard the cliche before, but life ain't fair!
Is it somehow more fair to force taxpayers to support drug abusers and give them money to buy their drugs? You can't buy alcohol on food stamps even though alcohol is used in some recipes. The odds of someone using alcohol for a recipe are probably greater than the odds that someone would fail a drug test in all of your scenarios put together. There is no way that I would support any of those arguments.
If someone is using the welfare money for drugs, fine take it away, but first you have to prove that they are indeed using that money for drugs. And a drug test doesn't prove that they use the money for drugs, it just proves that they have used the drugs. Just my opinion anyways.
1- Where else would the money be coming from? When you are on welfare, you are supposed to report any money you get. If you're getting enough money to buy drugs, you don't need welfare.
2- "Sally" is using drugs and can't pay her utility bill. "Bob" pays her utility bill for her. Bob just gave Sally a way to continue in her drugs.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 10:14:09 PM
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solo_soprano24
Posts: 2007
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You can get drugs in your system from second-hand drug smoke, but I don't know how much it takes for it to be detected in a test or for one to get high, although it can happen-- probably depending on how much smoke there is, how long you're around, how long it was between the test and the smoke inhalation, etc.
If you sit around someone smoking a cigarette, you might breathe in the smoke and get irritated. If you sit around someone smoking a joint, same thing (although you might not get irritated).
ETA: I tried to find some "proof." Found a few-- links to a couple, so no one will think I'm more crazy than I really am. You can find them on things like PubMed and Google Scholar. [Passive inhalation of cannabis smoke--is it detectable?] (Abstract), Cannabinoids in blood and urine after passive inhalation of Cannabis smoke.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 10:41:30 PM
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trey182
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From: North Carolina
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pink..
quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
In the same way I don't think a persons personal doings should have any effect on whether they can or cannot receive welfare, as long as those personal doings aren't hurting anybody else.
I hate to burst your bubble, but there are no victimless crimes.
A couple years ago, I was at a street with crosswalks, and I walked across the street without staying in the crosswalks. I believe this is called jaywalking. And no one was hurt. There was no victim. I have a friend who does pot every now and then. He is fine. His parents are pretty old now and they have been doing it for years, longer than I have been alive. They are fine.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
quote:
ORIGINAL: pink..
I'm sure you've heard the cliche before, but life ain't fair!
Is it somehow more fair to force taxpayers to support drug abusers and give them money to buy their drugs? You can't buy alcohol on food stamps even though alcohol is used in some recipes. The odds of someone using alcohol for a recipe are probably greater than the odds that someone would fail a drug test in all of your scenarios put together. There is no way that I would support any of those arguments.
If someone is using the welfare money for drugs, fine take it away, but first you have to prove that they are indeed using that money for drugs. And a drug test doesn't prove that they use the money for drugs, it just proves that they have used the drugs. Just my opinion anyways.
1- Where else would the money be coming from? When you are on welfare, you are supposed to report any money you get. If you're getting enough money to buy drugs, you don't need welfare.
2- "Sally" is using drugs and can't pay her utility bill. "Bob" pays her utility bill for her. Bob just gave Sally a way to continue in her drugs.
Who says they are spending money on the drugs at all? If they go over to a friends house, and their friend gives them some marijuana, then they use it and it is in their system. They didn't spend any money on it at all. People give away small amounts of marijuana all the time. I have never accepted any, but I can't even count how many times I have been offered some for free.
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God Is Love.
1 John 4:8 -- John 15:13 -- Matthew 22:36-40 -- Galatians 5:22
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 11:54:27 PM
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StephK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: VonWeeden
quote:
ORIGINAL: SweetLittleErin
No one here is suggesting not supporting those who need help?
Its more why support those who are breaking the law?
Why does God support us, even though we are continually breaking the law?
God most often lets us suffer the consequences of our stupid choices.
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Stephanie
A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones. ~~Proverbs 14:30 NIV~~
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/17/2010 11:57:36 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17759
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: offline
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Thanks for the links, Solo. The thing is, I was responding to Trey's remark that just walking past someone standing outside could cause a person to have second hand smoke, enough that it would show up on a drug test. I don't believe it. It seems like an exaggeration to me.
Sitting in a room where others are smoking, sure I can see it. But why would one put themselves in such a position? And I'm sure that even if they are not putting the joint to their mouth, if they have it show up in a urine test, then they were high.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/18/2010 1:24:44 AM
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relady
Posts: 634
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
If every other law abiding citizen has to sustain a drug test in order to retain OR obtain employment, then those who are unable should have to do the same in order to obtain or retain government assistance. But not every law abiding citizen does have to drug test to get a job. I have never drug tested for a job, neither has my hubby, and my son just recently changed jobs and drug testing wasn't even mentioned. Hubby and I both have worked for Fortune 100 and 500 companies. I would seriously have to reconsider whether I wanted to work for a company that required random drug testing, I believe it's an invasion of privacy. If I weren't absolutely desperate for a job I know I'd turn down an offer for such a company, it's certainly not one I'd want to work for. But I digress. There are PLENTY of companies out there that do not drug test their employees, especially randomly.
Of all the posters out here, how many of you live in states where people actually still get welfare checks? I know they don't in Missouri. Food stamps, medicaid for pregnant moms and their children. That's about it in Missouri. And medicaid has been cut, and a single mom with one child would lose all her food stamp benefits if she earned more than something like $1200 a month. Yeahhh, I really want to drug test all these people. Not.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 2/18/2010 6:38:26 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8198
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trey182
There is a law (or was, idk if it is a law anymore) in the state i live in (NC) that says bingo games cannot last over 5 hours unless it is at a fair.
In my thinking gambling of any sort (including bingo) should also be grounds to withold welfare monies.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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