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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 10:54:47 AM
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thebaker
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the dvd/movie issue has come up before in other threads so i won't go into that one because that goes on forever. but simply put, breaking the code to make copies, download, etc even if there is a program that allows it, it's wrong. just because a program lets you do it doesn't mean it's ok to do.
the wifi issue to me seems tricky. i've heard many people say taht they can pick up wifi in various areas when traelling by train or bus or whatever. and they're not out to beg, borrow, or steal wifi, that's the nature of wifi. i think if you're in your own house and you have wifi and you just happen to get your neighbor's wifi but you use yours, you're not doing anything wrong. BUT if you decide not to get wifi because your neighbor has it and you'll just use theirs, then you're stealing.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 10:56:56 AM
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GodandGuns
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same as is it a sin. if you have to ask?..........
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 1:15:05 PM
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Kerrlaw
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In my opinion, copying the DVDs by disabling the security system is definitely stealing.
Using wifi, IMO, is not. My reasoning is that a wifi signal is comparable to an over the air TV signal, it is there for the taking, and is not depriving anyone of their copyright rights. If my understanding of wifi is wrong (I am not very computer savvy) someone can tell me.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 1:27:46 PM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thebaker
the dvd/movie issue has come up before in other threads so i won't go into that one because that goes on forever. but simply put, breaking the code to make copies, download, etc even if there is a program that allows it, it's wrong. just because a program lets you do it doesn't mean it's ok to do.
the wifi issue to me seems tricky. i've heard many people say taht they can pick up wifi in various areas when traelling by train or bus or whatever. and they're not out to beg, borrow, or steal wifi, that's the nature of wifi. i think if you're in your own house and you have wifi and you just happen to get your neighbor's wifi but you use yours, you're not doing anything wrong. BUT if you decide not to get wifi because your neighbor has it and you'll just use theirs, then you're stealing.
What is being stolen in the WIFI example? I find it curious people attempt to answer the OP's question without first engaging in any analysis detailing, explaining, and conceptualizing the word "steal" and by extension "stealing." Many here so far seem content to just presume some preconceived notion of stealing, choose not to disclose it here, but proceed to answer in the affirmative or the negative whether stealing exists in either situation, upon this undisclosed preconceived idea of the word itself.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 1:50:16 PM
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FacingFoward
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Taking something that does not belong to you without permission is stealing.. Its not anymore complicated than that.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 1:59:52 PM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kerrlaw
In my opinion, copying the DVDs by disabling the security system is definitely stealing.
Using wifi, IMO, is not. My reasoning is that a wifi signal is comparable to an over the air TV signal, it is there for the taking, and is not depriving anyone of their copyright rights. If my understanding of wifi is wrong (I am not very computer savvy) someone can tell me.
I think the concept is this: Neighbor A pays $50 to CompanyABC for internet service/wifi in his house. In order to have a wifi signal, a router must be rented/purchased to transmit that signal. The intention of the router/wifi is to be able to access that signal from anywhere in the house. Many times that signal is strong enough that it will reach other houses. However, the wifi signal is paid for by neighbor A.
If neighbor B happens to be close enough to pick up on that signal, he is not required to pay for his own internet signal. CompanyABC, therefore, loses $50/month because Neighbor B is not paying for it.
While I don't think this is a "copyright" issue, I do not think it is ethical to not pay for a service because you've managed to get it for free by other means.
Another issue to consider: when you purchase internet service, sometimes you have limited bandwidth or a set download/upload speed. With more computers using that same wifi, the connection will be slower and/or Neighbor A may have to pay additional costs for using extra bandwidth. (Assuming the neighbor didn't think to put a password on his router).
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 2:03:57 PM
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bolt.
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If you would not normally have purchased the service, and if you are not doing anything that would noticeably eat bandwidth, and if you are not circumventing any measures, I see no theft in that scenario.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/8/2010 2:37:28 PM
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car2ner
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My mom lives in the house next door to ours. We have wifi and were planning on letting her share ours. We were able to, although the connection was poor, until the service provider changed our router/modem. Then our booster wouldn't sinc and that put and end to our sharing.
Now if someone parked outside of our house to use our wifi, expecting us to pay the bill but they get it for free, shame on them. If someone was passing thru and had to find a hot spot in a pinch, that's not a big deal in my mind, EXCEPT we have ours password protected.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 9:36:01 AM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FacingFoward
Taking something that does not belong to you without permission is stealing.. Its not anymore complicated than that.
How does WIFI come within this definition? What about an item found on a sidewalk? What if one day you woke up and found some item in your backyard, and retrieved the item and took the item into your home? Let's say it was $100 bill, or a cd, a pair of tennis shoes, etcetera?
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 9:39:29 AM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
ORIGINAL: FacingFoward
Taking something that does not belong to you without permission is stealing.. Its not anymore complicated than that.
How does WIFI come within this definition?
Because someone else paid for that wifi signal.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 9:41:23 AM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
ORIGINAL: FacingFoward
Taking something that does not belong to you without permission is stealing.. Its not anymore complicated than that.
How does WIFI come within this definition?
Because someone else paid for that wifi signal.
So? What is being stolen? The wifi is not being "taken". The wifi is still there, it is still present, it still exists! What is being "taken" when someone else uses another individual's wifi?
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 9:43:02 AM
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FunBetty
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Yes, it still "exists", but if you are using someone's wifi, you are slowing down their connection speed (and they may potentially be charged for using extra bandwidth).
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 9:43:52 AM
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MrFribbles
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Something to consider in the WIFI discussion -
It's the owner's initiative to password-protect their signal. If they leave their network open, isn't it possible that they intend for others to share their signal?
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 10:05:03 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Something to consider in the WIFI discussion -
It's the owner's initiative to password-protect their signal. If they leave their network open, isn't it possible that they intend for others to share their signal?
possibly their intention but sharing signal with others would be against their terms of service and likely one that would get them suspended if that was their intention to be a free hotspot. so i would be participating in an attempt to defraud or break an agreement between two people. doubtful they'd be caught and prosecuted but i could probably steal a pack of gum and not get caught if i chose.
p.s. using another's signal is against the law in many locations including some states
p.p.s. i have a feeling bandwith will be measured more tightly in the future, which will mean people won't really want to share. just a hunch.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 10:06:47 AM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
Yes, it still "exists", but if you are using someone's wifi, you are slowing down their connection speed (and they may potentially be charged for using extra bandwidth).
Hmmm....the connection speed is not necessarily "slowed" by the use of wifi by another individual. Furthermore, the "slowing down the connection speed" may not be something which is "taken." The wifi is still there, the connection speed is likely unaffected or the adverse affect on connection speed is de minimis, and in such a scenario stealing is non-existent.
According to your reasoning, a slowing in the connection speed and or the individual having being charged for using extra bandwith constitutes as stealing. So the person who uses someone else's wifi, without their permission, is not stealing when their use does not slow connectivity and/or the individual is not charged for use of extra bandwith. Does this line drawing make sense to you?
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 10:11:55 AM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
Yes, it still "exists", but if you are using someone's wifi, you are slowing down their connection speed (and they may potentially be charged for using extra bandwidth).
Hmmm....the connection speed is not necessarily "slowed" by the use of wifi by another individual. Furthermore, the "slowing down the connection speed" may not be something which is "taken." The wifi is still there, the connection speed is likely unaffected or the adverse affect on connection speed is de minimis, and in such a scenario stealing is non-existent.
According to your reasoning, a slowing in the connection speed and or the individual having being charged for using extra bandwith constitutes as stealing. So the person who uses someone else's wifi, without their permission, is not stealing when their use does not slow connectivity and/or the individual is not charged for use of extra bandwith. Does this line drawing make sense to you?
I never said it was okay to steal wifi if it wouldn't affect the other person. I stated the above as possible consequences of stealing. Whether someone only checks their e-mail once a week or streams videos all day long, they are still using a service that they are not paying for.
So, yes. My line drawing DOES make sense.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 10:22:18 AM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
Yes, it still "exists", but if you are using someone's wifi, you are slowing down their connection speed (and they may potentially be charged for using extra bandwidth).
Hmmm....the connection speed is not necessarily "slowed" by the use of wifi by another individual. Furthermore, the "slowing down the connection speed" may not be something which is "taken." The wifi is still there, the connection speed is likely unaffected or the adverse affect on connection speed is de minimis, and in such a scenario stealing is non-existent.
According to your reasoning, a slowing in the connection speed and or the individual having being charged for using extra bandwith constitutes as stealing. So the person who uses someone else's wifi, without their permission, is not stealing when their use does not slow connectivity and/or the individual is not charged for use of extra bandwith. Does this line drawing make sense to you?
I never said it was okay to steal wifi if it wouldn't affect the other person. I stated the above as possible consequences of stealing. Whether someone only checks their e-mail once a week or streams videos all day long, they are still using a service that they are not paying for.
So, yes. My line drawing DOES make sense.
What is being "taken"? The wifi still exists, as you previously admitted, so what is being taken? Your argument is tantamount to the following. "He stole (taken) my automobile and while he stole it from me, I was simultaneously capable of using it." Well, if the automobile was stolen, i.e. taken from the individual, then they no longer have it in their possession, for their use, for the period of time in which it was stolen.
What is being taken away from the individual here in the case of wifi? Second, if you were listing the possible consequences of the theft, as opposed to drawing lines delineating when stealing exists and does not, then there is no line drawing, which necessarily renders as moot and void your remark the line drawing makes sense. Line drawing cannot make sense when and where line drawing is non-existent.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 10:26:28 AM
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FunBetty
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Dictionary.com - Steal
quote:
steal /stil/ Show Spelled [steel] Show IPA ,verb,stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
If you are using something without permission or right, that is taking.
I'm sorry if that is not clear enough for you to understand.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 10:26:47 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
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ummm i'm pretty sure the line is drawn with the government and internet company. funny how you are arguining over people's opinions instead of the laws and terms of service (legal agreements)
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 12:03:26 PM
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DaveW
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Do you expect my mother in her 70s and not thinking all that clearly any more to figure out how to put a password on her wireless router? And expect her to remember said password?
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 12:22:17 PM
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FunBetty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
But it is not the neighbor's signal, the neighbor is paying to subscribe to it.
You would not be taking anything from the neighbor, but from the ISP.
Good point.
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RE: What is considered stealing? - 3/9/2010 12:42:42 PM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FunBetty
Dictionary.com - Steal
quote:
steal /stil/ Show Spelled [steel] Show IPA ,verb,stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
If you are using something without permission or right, that is taking.
I'm sorry if that is not clear enough for you to understand.
Reading the definition rather closely, it says to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right. The example they gave was of something tanglible, i.e a watch. Since when has wifi constituted as property? Is wifi property? Are you actually asserting wifi is property, like a car, house, wallet, computer, etcetera?
So no, it is not at all clear to me because A.) you conveniently chose to rely on only the portion of the definition which suited your argument while ignoring the "property" component to the definition and B.) the definition you cited refers to "property" and does anybody know if wifi constitutes as "property"?
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. They said someone was draining on theirs and they wanted to know who it was. Turned out a certain member of their family was constantly downloading stuff.)